Religious Conversion in Marriage/Childrearing?

Parent Cafe
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<p>Hi CC–I posted on these boards briefly in high school and found the advice to be very useful, so I’m hoping you can help me out with another dilemma. It’s not time sensitive, but it does represent a large decision, and I am looking for some thoughts to guide me through the process. </p>

<p>My boyfriend and I have been dating long enough, and are secure enough in our relationship, to seriously discuss the idea of marriage and having children as more than just an abstraction. We both come from a community and attend schools with substantial Jewish populations, and have friends of varying faith traditions. Neither of us are particular observant regarding religion–he was raised Jewish (Reform), while I am ancestrally Catholic, although it has never played a role in my life (other than secularly celebrating Christmas), and grew up going to synagogue with my best friend.</p>

<p>Since both of us grew up comfortable with or practicing Judaism and he would like his children to be raised Jewish, I am contemplating eventually converting. There’s no coercion in this contemplation (i.e. no ultimatum that I must convert or the relationship is over), but I would like some advice regarding questions to ask myself as we continue to move forward in our relationship. I know that a number of synagogues offer a “Judaism 101” course for those considering conversion, but I was wondering if anyone else had suggestions for mechanisms by which I might begin this tentative journey.</p>

<p>Thanks in advance.</p>

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<p>So here is what the “official” body of Reform Congregations has to say:</p>

<p>[URJ</a> - Q & A](<a href=“http://urj.org/outreach/conversion/qa/index.cfm?]URJ”>http://urj.org/outreach/conversion/qa/index.cfm?)</p>

<p>As you will see, since there is no official dogma on conversion in Reform Judaism, your experience may vary some from congregation to congregation.</p>

<p>Something you (and your partner) should know - it may not make any difference to you, but it is worth being aware: Conversion to Reform Judaism is not recognized by the bulk of the world’s Jews (orthodox and conservative); and as you will be the mother, your children will not be recognized by them as Jews either. This issue has actually come up in Israel when children of women converted to Reform Judaism have actually tried to get married there. </p>

<p>The best mechanism to start is to read, and join a study group. Good luck!</p>

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<p>I am the child of a Jewish mother (so I am Jewish) and a Roman Catholic father (and was baptized Catholic, so I am Catholic). Not too many of my particular combination around, but there are some.</p>

<p>Just a thought from my point of view. I was blessed to have parents who totally respected each other’s religions and traditions and we observed elements of both. I actually went to Catholic schools most of my life (until college) and grew up thinking of myself as “Catholic with a Jewish mother.”</p>

<p>I have been more drawn to my Jewish heritage as I have gotten older and am now closer to my mother’s side of the family. I now think of myself as “half and half”. (Both of my parents are long deceased). I do wish that I had studied Judaism more, earlier in my life. And I truly love how much of Jewish observance takes place in the home with the family at its center.</p>

<p>Good luck with your journey.</p>

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<p>Jewish law is very ambivalent about conversion. Whereas most “modern” religions permit (and encourage) people to choose them, Judaism does not really have the concept that being Jewish (or not) is a matter of choice; the concept of who is a Jew or not is based on tribal identity (and thus being a party to the covenant with God), not a profession of faith. (This, of course, was one of the things in Judaism Jesus rebelled against – the notion that only members of certain tribal families were within the covenant.)</p>

<p>The Jewish law of conversion is very bound up with practices that developed to deal with pogroms and other attacks on Jewish communities. Records were lost or destroyed, families separated, women raped and children kidnapped. Someone might show up in a Jewish community, and claim to be a Jew, but no one would know who he was or what family he was from, and he might not ever have been really part of a Jewish community. So a rabbinic court would be convened to hear the person’s petition to be recognized as a Jew, and the court would examine him, take evidence, and render a decision. It was purely a factual question: was the petitioner part of the Jewish people?</p>

<p>Over time, a concept developed that a Jewish soul might somehow be born into a non-Jewish body, and that a rabbinic court could determine that this particular person was, in fact, a member of the Jewish people, notwithstanding a lack of any biological connection to Jews. The theory is like the protocol for sex-change operations, where candidates have to convince the doctors that they have always felt they were one gender, notwithstanding that their bodies reflected a different gender. In this case, the idea is that there is a soul that has always been Jewish, and has finally found its way back to the Jewish community and needs to be recognized as such.</p>

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<p>That is a deep and powerful sentence. While Jewish law appreciates that the desire to please a spouse could be one possible motivation among many motivations, the ultimate decision is yours. </p>

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<p>This year, take the pressure off of yourself. You have genuine curiosity and an inclination to learn. That is so commendable. Why not just enjoy the coming year to just study about what Jewish people do, the “why’s” behind the holidays and customs, and get a glimpse of the many diverse beliefs about God. That’s what most Judaism l0l courses cover, with books and classroom discussions, over a year’s time. You can also take the class alone, but it’s not as much fun. He’ll grow, too by seeing you learn.</p>

<p>It would be most helpful if your partner attends class with you, reads the same books, and becomes your study-buddy. Even if he’s heard of all the topics, there will be plenty he doesn’t know. Ask him to do this for you; it is not coercive. You are reaching out towards him, and he should make the time to join you in the study aspect.</p>

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<p>You are absolutely correct that Judaism l0l is for people “considering” conversion. You do not commit to conversion prior to taking this course. Coming from Catholicism, one big difference you’ll find very soon is that you’re studying about a way of life, rather than a creed or singular belief. </p>

<p>If as the year progresses, you find that a Jewish way of life sounds appealing to you, you’ll be drawn into it further by your own inclination. If it doesn’t move you, that’s okay; at least you’ve learned more about what makes your boyfriend and his family tick. Either way, your time will be well-spent. </p>

<p>Summing it up:

  1. Work within an organized l0l course; it’s too confusing to just read books.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Ask your boyfriend to participate in the class with you. He shouldn’t be too busy for this, and it’s not too much to ask.</p></li>
<li><p>Enjoy your studies, realizing that the interpersonal decisions will come later. Let it flow.</p></li>
<li><p>If it becomes a marriage, get good rabbinic counseling and help to work on the decisions. Premarital counseling is something that you can both request when you engage a clergy to marry you, if that’s how your story ends/continues.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>P.S.: Outside of the course time, the two of you could find it interesting to visit many synagogues in your region and see the different kinds of worship services. Be sure not to miss the cookies afterwards. You can also go with some other class members, so you can eat before or after together. Most of all, be sure to eat. ;)</p>

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<p>I sent you a PM sharing my orthodox conversion story.</p>

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<p>

Reform conversion is not recognized by the Orthodox, but it is by the American Conservative movement. Additionally, those who have undergone Reform conversion outside of Israel are considered to be Jewish (as are their children) in Israel except by the ultra-Orthodox; Reform conversion is not available in Israel. Yes, it continues to be a source of controversy among Jews in Israel - we don’t have enough problems there so we must argue amongst ourselves.</p>

<p>Questions to ask yourself:

  1. Will I miss the “secular” Christmas celebrations? If I convert and practice as a Jew, will my husband be comfortable with having a Christmas tree? If I do not convert, will my husband be comfortable having a Christmas tree?</p>

<p>2) How will my family react? It may not seem like Christianity is a big deal to them, but when faced with a conversion, it may become bigger than they currently realize.</p>

<p>3) If you do not convert, will you still commit to raising your children as Jews? Reform Jews recognize the children of Jewish fathers as being Jewish (patrilineal descent), but Conservative and Orthodox do not. Would you permit your children to undergo a formal Conservative or Orthodox conversion? Will you be willing to adopt some of the traditions of Judaism and practice them in your home? Like Shabbat candle-lighting, Passover seders, Chanukah candles, etc. Would you be willing to help your children learn about Judaism, take them to Hebrew School, etc. if you did not convert?</p>

<p>4) Most synagogues, even Reform, will not permit children to enroll in Jewish education if they are also in another faith’s education (like CCD or Sunday school). Can you live with that?</p>

<p>I don’t know where you live, but in various communities the Combined Jewish Philanthropies, the United Jewish Appeal, or the Union of Reform Judaism hold classes not affiliated with a synagogue both for those who are contemplating conversion and for those who are just in a Jewish-Christian relationship and not necessarily contemplating conversion. Since there’s no synagogue involved, there’s generally little pressure. In Boston, the course is called “A Taste of Judaism”. </p>

<p>Good luck to you in whatever you decide.</p>

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<p>Well, the information I have is contrary: most American Conservative congregations will not recognize a reform conversion, though many individual rabbis may, provided Conservative or Orthodox ritualistic requirements are met (i.e. circumcision, or mikvah immersion).</p>

<p>[Ahavat</a> Israel - Orthodox, Conservative, Reform - Jewish Assimilation - Jews Protest in Jerusalem, Israel](<a href=“http://www.ahavat-israel.com/protest/judaism.php]Ahavat”>Ahavat Israel - Orthodox, Conservative, Reform - Jewish Assimilation - Jews Protest in Jerusalem, Israel)
[Reform</a> Judaism: conversion, conservative synagogues, conservative jew](<a href=“http://en.allexperts.com/q/Reform-Judaism-950/conversion-2.htm]Reform”>http://en.allexperts.com/q/Reform-Judaism-950/conversion-2.htm)</p>

<p>Reform Judaism also recognizes patrilineal descent (i.e. if the the father is Jewish, the children are, regardless of mother), if the child is brought up Jewish.</p>

<p>There have been very recent changes in official status in Israel:</p>

<p>[Court</a> Accepts Reform, Conservative Conversions in Israel; Orthodox Vow to Fight On](<a href=“http://www.ujc.org/page.aspx?id=28914]Court”>http://www.ujc.org/page.aspx?id=28914)</p>

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<p>There’s some out-and-out wrong info in the above posts, by some of my all-time favorite prolific CC posters, too. Mini, however, has pointers to the real deal, for those who want to know what each of the 3 biggie movements say. However, I don’t think the OP was looking for this much detail! </p>

<p>Hi OP,</p>

<p>You could approach this academically, by for example taking or auditing a Jewish history class at school; you could make an appointment with a Hillel staffer to discuss your interest and get phone numbers and names of congregational rabbis in your area whose “Intro to Judaism” classes you might like; you could just try out some of those conversion classes cold - I’m pretty sure no commitment to continue the class, or synagogue membership, will be required. Any of these would be a fine first step towards finding out more. You sound pretty far from making a decision, which is as it should be.</p>

<p>I promised myself I wouldn’t get bogged down in refuting details/viewpoints, but I can’t help just mentioning that from a classical Jewish point of view, your involvement with a Jewish boyfriend and your possible desire to marry him are a HINDRANCE to conversion, not an asset. This will not be an issue with Reform or (most) Conservative Rabbis, but most definitely would with Orthodox ones. Don’t take this personally - the intent of this policy is not to disrespect you or make you feel unwelcome; it is to ensure that conversion happens for the ‘right’ reasons (in scare-quotes to show my full awareness that rightness of reason is in the eye of the beholder) - out of conviction and faith.</p>

<p>Good luck finding a comfortable way to learn more about Judaism.</p>

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<p>AND THEREFORE, you have many viable choices in front of you.</p>

<p>Please, why scare somebody? If I read that, as a young woman, I might think I had to break up with my boyfriend in order to investigate Judaism and dream of marrying him someday. How unwelcoming is that? </p>

<p>I have sat on a Beit Din for conversion candidates. The questions asked are to ensure that the candidate has thought for herself/himself, and isn’t just doing this out of coercion from the fiance or in-law family. </p>

<p>It is NOT a hindrance to have a Jewish boyfriend or fiance; there just has to be MORE to it than that once she gets to a decision-point. Study and the many ways mentioned above are some of the ways to have it become “more than that.”</p>

<p>But…I liked the rest of Memake’s post, which gave the OP other practical pathways than the “synagogue l0l” classes, as she’d requested more ideas.</p>

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<p>

I guess that, like many other things in Judaism, it depends on which rabbi you ask! Since there is no overriding Jewish authority, opinions differ. The Conservative rabbis I have spoken to say that generally Conservative rabbis do accept Reform conversions that include the mikveh and some other rituals.</p>

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<p>I recommend your boyfriend attend a class with you–he will have fun learning too, and no doubt come away with a fresh perspective on things he may have learned as a youngster, or never learned at all.</p>

<p>A really good book that I first enjoyed about…30… years ago is This Is My God, by Herman Wouk. He writes from an Orthodox perspective, but even if you never come around to his point of view, he very beautifully explains the customs and observances.</p>

<p>Another fun book would be The Joys of Yiddish, by Leo Rosten. It’s not just a language, it’s a window on a culture.</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t say having a boyfriend is a hindrance exactly, but in the orthodox tradition, it raises questions that would not be asked if there was not a boyfriend in the picture.</p>

<p>I think there’s an expression that goes something like, “With 10 Jewish scholars in the room, you will get 11 opinions.”</p>

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<p>I think mini is wrong in saying that most Conservative congregations won’t accept a Reform conversion. My understanding is that most <em>will</em> accept it, so long as the formal elements that would be required for a Conservative conversion are met. The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism has a link to <a href=“http://www.convert.org/movement.htm[/url]”>http://www.convert.org/movement.htm&lt;/a&gt;, which notes:</p>

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<p>How often a Reform conversion would, in fact, meet those standards, I don’t know.</p>

<p>I know that Mini is incorrect in saying that “the bulk of the world’s Jews” are Orthodox or Conservative. See <a href=“http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/world-jewish-population.htm:[/url]”>http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/world-jewish-population.htm:&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Of course, that’s a little misleading, because there are a lot of Jews in the world who may not be technically Orthodox, but whose religious practices would “look” Orthodox to us.</p>

<p>In any event, though, I believe that Conservative Judaism barely exists outside the US, Canada, the UK, Israel, etc. I don’t think it’s even called “Conservative” in the UK and Israel; it’s called “Masorti” (traditional).</p>

<p>None of which is really on-topic, of course!</p>

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<p>(I’m not necessarily talking about the OP here)</p>

<p>I don’t understand the conversion from one religion (or none) to another for the sake of convenience. Since religions are primarily about ‘spiritual beliefs’ how could one simply convert because it might make it easier for their kids unless they truly believed in the theories and practices of the particular church? For example, if one was a practicing Christian truly believing in certain spiritual aspect of Jesus, how could they switch to another religion with a different basic belief, and vice versa? </p>

<p>If one makes the conversion, largely for the sake of the kids, and then gets a divorce 2 years down the road and ends up marrying someone of a different faith, would they be inclined to dump the new-found religion and then switch over to the new one for the sake of the kids?</p>

<p>I understand changing a religion because one studied various religions and ended up ‘believing’ in a particular one due to its philosophies but that’s different than doing so just because the spouse happens to be a particular religion and it’d be more convenient if both attempted to practice it whether they truly believed in the spiritual aspects of that religion or not.</p>

<p>Just wondering.</p>

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<p>It is something of a Protestant quirk to regard religion as “primarily about spiritual beliefs”. I would hypothesize that for most people, religion is primarily about social identification – a group to which one belongs, a set of communal practices in which one participates, a mutual support society of which one is a member, a means of providing children with socialization and moral education. In my experience – and, granted, I don’t hang out with too many evangelical Christians, other than my office manager – if “spiritual belief” were really a prerequisite for church (or whatever) membership, the membership rolls would be a lot smaller.</p>

<p>My own religion regards belief as pretty much beside the point – a nice extra if you happen to have it, but not necessary. What’s necessary is (a) identity, and (b) performance of obligations. Now, of course, one could argue that it takes a certain amount of belief to be willing to perform the myriad obligations, but I think for most of history, in most contexts, in societies less integrated and tolerant than ours, social pressure worked perfectly well to enforce conformity, regardless of belief.</p>

<p>From what I understand, Islam is somewhat the same way. If you acknowledge its authority, and perform your obligations (including, of course, not worshipping some other god(s), something that applies to Judaism as well), whether you believe or not is a matter of personal conscience as long as you keep it to yourself.</p>

<p>I am not certain that belief is necessary for Catholics or Hindus. There are many people on CC far more qualified than I to address that. I am not certain that the concept of “belief” as we use it is relevant to what I think of as Buddhism at all.</p>

<p>Among major-league religions, only Protestantism (and maybe only some forms of it – I don’t know that this applies to, say, Episcopalians or Quakers) unambiguously regards personal belief as the defining element of religious identification.</p>

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<p>

That’s an interesting statement. I’d like to hear what others think regarding this point. </p>

<p>I understand that some ‘religions’ have particular ‘cultures’; some more than others. However, do these religions really condone the idea that their members and those wishing to convert to them need not actually believe in the spiritual aspects of the religion? If it was really permitted then why would one need to “keep it to yourself”? </p>

<p>What’s the point in switching if you don’t actually believe in their spiritual aspects?</p>

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<p>Orthodox Judaism is mostly about what you do, following the law. The spiritual fulfillment comes from living a religious life. There are many sects of Judaism, and no one definition of Judaism would be accepted by all. </p>

<p>So, no, I don’t think Jews are expected to believe in the spiritual aspects of the religion, as much as to live a life in accordance with Jewish law. This notion is very different from Protestant Christianity where a profession of faith is sometimes all that is necessary and sufficient for inclusion. </p>

<p>Furthmore, Jews are encouraged to question and debate the teachings. There are entire books – volumes of books – devoted to interpretation of the law. That may partly account for why there is such a difference of opinion among Jewish scholars and denominations.</p>

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<p>So if a person believed that Jesus was the son of God, could they be Jewish and accepted by that sect?</p>

<p>To convert to Judaism, could one simply follow laws and ways of life that don’t involve particular spiritual beliefs?</p>

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The Jews for Jesus or Messianic Jews would have you believe so. For mainstream Jews, it’s more what you don’t believe than what you do. As JHS noted, being Jewish requires that one does not believe in other gods. But it does not require that one believe in G-d. In Judaism, what you do is more important than what you believe. Action comes first; belief may follow, but doesn’t have to. </p>

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No. Judaism, while it does focus on action as well as belief, is a (somewhat) organized religion and one must follow the rituals to be accepted into the community as a member. If one does not follow the rituals, but leads a good life, one is considered a “Righteous Gentile,” but not a Jew. </p>

<p>And this is the major distinction with Judaism - it is more than a religion, it is a community and an ethnicity. One may convert simply because one wants to be a member of that community and, in some cases, to share in that community with one’s spouse and children. There is no concept of being “born again” in Judaism; it’s simply not necessary.</p>

<p>And as je<em>ne</em>sais_quois put it, questioniong and arguing is essential to Judaism, especially among orthodox Jews. In the yeshiva, students study Talmud (the Oral Law) in pairs, by arguing obscure points of law. If Student A cannot think of a counterargument to one posed by Student B, but Student B can, Student B is required to tell Student A so that the argument can continue.</p>

<p>The concept of simply unquestioningly accepting G-d’s will or the demands of the clergy (as, say, Catholics are to follow the rulings of the Pope) is a foreign one to Judaism. After all, our greatest forefathers and prophets (Abraham and Moses) actually argued with G-d. It is expected that we explore, examine, and question our Holy Books. Remember Tevye’s line, “And I’d discuss the Holy Books with the learned men 7 hours every day. That would be the sweetest thing of all.”</p>