Religious Conversion in Marriage/Childrearing?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I’m not sure I understand what you are asking, but I’ll try to answer. When converting to Judaism, in an Orthodox way, you would accept the teachings of the religion. That was not what I meant by “spiritual aspects.” I would call those dogmatic aspects. </p>

<p>Regarding spiritual fulfillment: I was trying to describe the ways some Jews experience their spirituality that differs from Protestant Christianity. </p>

<p>(I’m making dinner and taking care of little children as I post these thoughts, probably not the wisest idea since it is a serious topic and I do not want to mislead!)</p>

<p>I see your post, Chedva.Thanks, I’ll let you take it from here!</p>

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<p>Thanks all for the insight. So it seems that there actually is a spiritual and ‘belief’ component to it and that it’s more than following certain customs and a particular lifestyle although those are components, perhaps more so than many other religions. </p>

<p>Actually, I’ve never been Protestant so I’m no expert there and it’s not the perspective from which I’m asking my questions.</p>

<p>OP - Sorry I seemed to take this off on a tangent but hopefully some of the dialogue is useful to you.</p>

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<p>I disagree with je-ne-sais-quoi in one minor respect regarding Judaism. Overwhelmingly, all Jewish sects and division agree on the definition of who is a Jew. It’s someone born to a mother who was a Jew, or someone whose status as a Jew has been confirmed by a valid rabbinical court. The American Reform movement now apparently recognizes any child of a Jewish father as a Jew, too, but that is very recent. Of course, differences of opinion may and do exist about what rabbinical courts have been validly constituted, and what standards they should apply. Where the real disagreements come in is with what constitutes a good Jew.</p>

<p>ucsd . . . dad: Saul of Tarsus believed that Jesus was the son of God, and he was Jewish. Your question is a serious one, though. As my previous posts tried to communicate, within Judaism the question of who is a Jew is primarily tribal, not credal. If your mother was a Jew, so are you. Period. If your mother wasn’t a Jew, well, maybe you can jump through 50 hoops over several years and get recognized as a Jew if we get tired of turning you down and you seem crazy enough to have to be Jewish. (That back door doesn’t affect the population count much.)</p>

<p>If you are a Jew, and you believe in the divinity of Jesus, and you talk about it a lot, then you’re a Jew who is saying a bunch of non-Jewish things. If you press it in places like synagogue or a Jewish school, people will probably tell you that you are rude and ask you to leave. (More likely, you will have already left, because it’s more fun to hang with people who support you.) There is an excommunication procedure in Jewish law that I know practically nothing about, because it is essentially unused in the past, say 200 years. I believe excommunication works with regard to a specific community, though. I don’t think any rabbinic court has authority to kick you out of the Jewish people altogether (in part because there’s no central authority).</p>

<p>If you are a Jew who believes in the divinity of Jesus, and who continues to follow Jewish law, then you are a good Jew. That may be oxymoronic – there is some controversy within Judaism whether the notion of the Trinity is really polytheistic. If so, actual belief in the divinity of Jesus would violate the Second Commandment, and that would make you a pretty bad Jew, since worshipping gods other than God is a massive no-no. However, you would probably argue that you were still only worshipping the one God, and everyone would discuss that a lot.</p>

<p>For historical reasons, things like getting baptized and professing belief in Christ do not disqualify you as a Jew, since at various points the authorities liked nothing more than to herd all available Jews into a square, baptize them all, and ask them to choose between voluntary professions of faith and death by fire. However, Jews who really, truly believe in the divinity of Jesus tend to migrate to actual churches where they can act on that belief, and finally get to have Christmas trees, etc. (what every Jewish child wants). So, you don’t hear from them much, and the question of whether they are Jews only matters when someone decides to expropriate and/or exterminate the Jews (in which case the answer is not determined by reference to Jewish law, and is invariably “yes”).</p>

<p>Addendum: “I’ve never been Protestant” is an interesting statement. Protestant ideals are very firmly engrained in American culture. Most Jews I know – i.e., not necessarily the orthodox or Hasids – experience Judaism very much through a lens of Protestant concepts. Myself included. Reform Judaism, which is still very strong in America, was historically conceived to re-imagine Judaism in a way that more resembled Lutheranism, although the pendulum is swinging back the other way in this phase of history.</p>

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<p>I am Reform. I had a non-practicing Jewish father and a non-practicing Catholic mother. I married a Reform Jew, who had two Jewish parents. </p>

<p>Practically speaking, if you’re staying with Reform Jewish-land, which I believe the OP is, the fact that her children “won’t be Jewish” by C or O standards will be of little consequence. </p>

<p>My synagogue considers me Jewish via patrilineal descent, and my children Jewish through both sides. An O would not consider me or my children Jewish … even though my children have 3 grandparents who are fully Jewish by Jewish law, the key one – my mother – isn’t. This gratifies her and annoys her at the same time, as she knows more than all 3 of the Jewish gparents combined about Judaism :-).</p>

<p>But seriously, if one of my children grows up and wants to marry a C or O Jew and it’s problematic, they’ll deal with it then. I wouldn’t sweat the “not being recognized” thing in the OP’s circumstances. Everyone she needs to consider her Jewish will certainly consider her Jewish through a Reform conversion.</p>

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<p>UCSD UCLA Dad, you may want to google the word halacha (Jewish law). It’s a concept that really isn’t in any other religion that I’m aware of … slavish adherence to laws. What you do, not what you believe. O’s observe halacha in its entirely, C’s in some areas and not in others, R’s pick and choose (or don’t, and focus on tikkun olam, repair of the world).</p>

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<p>^^ Yes, I think I received an intro to the concept of the laws in Michener’s The Source :)</p>

<p>I also experienced a bit on a trip to Israel when one hotel on Saturdays had its doors blocked open and the elevator programmed to stop at every floor so no one would have to push a button on a Saturday. </p>

<p>Don’t Muslims have some similar laws?</p>

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<p>I want to add what to me is an interesting point. (And invite others more knowledgeable than I to elaborate.)</p>

<p>An area that I think is curiously underdeveloped in Jewish law is what non-Jews are supposed to do. Of course, it’s underdeveloped because only in the past 60 years has there been a place where Jewish law might have an effect on a substantial number of non-Jews, and 60 years is a short time for real doctrine to develop. As I understand it, there is a limited list of commandments that are seen as applying to non-Jews as well as Jews, including principally the Ten Commandments, and the obligation to respect Jews and to leave them alone. Judaism doesn’t want non-Jews to become Jews; that’s practically an absurd concept. But it’s not clear what Jewish doctrine thinks non-Jews should do with themselves with respect to worshipping God. </p>

<p>From the standpoint of Judaism, what is “wrong” with Christianity is not so much the belief that Jesus is the son of God. It’s the idea of ongoing revelation – that Jesus’ preaching has a status equal or superior to that of the canonized Old Testament and official commentaries. And the opening up of the covenant – the notion that Jesus’ sacrifice created a new covenant whereby salvation was offered to all of humanity (not just Jews) based on faith and love rather than strict adherence to Old Testament commandments and the law derived from them. Of course, that’s the central, really beautiful idea in Christianity. It has enormous moral power, even to a nonbeliever.</p>

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<p>In case you get REALLY curious, u-u-dad, in addition to the halaka (law), you can study the aggadah (non-legal writings), both parts of the midrash! </p>

<p>JHS, you’ll notice I said the definition of Judaism, not what constitutes a Jew;
but now we are splitting hairs like any good yeshiva student should. </p>

<p>I think G-d requires non-Jews to follow the 7 Noachide Laws, which have expanded to around 66.</p>

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<p>This has clearly gone off in a direction I hadn’t initially anticipated, although I really appreciate the discourse so far, as well as the intensely thoughtful suggestions I’ve received here and through private messages.</p>

<p>I suppose it would be helpful to clarify that the issue of conversion isn’t something which started with this relationship–like I stated in my original post, I grew up going to synagogue with my best friend and actually am fairly involved with the more social aspects of Hillel on my campus, in addition to celebrating Jewish holidays with my friends and their families. I have always felt more comfortable with Judaism (at least Reform, to which I’ve had the most exposure) than Christianity, and this aspect has just become more prevalent through the discussions my boyfriend and I have had in our relationship.</p>

<p>Pizzagirl is right in her evaluation that I am unlikely to venture beyond Reform-land, but even though Reform Judaism does now recognize patrilineal “transmission,” I think that given my own stance on the spiritual and community aspects of Judiasm it would be important for me to convert if I choose to raise children in that tradition. I would imagine it is rather difficult to tell one’s children that they ought to believe certain things and behave certain ways if one is not a member of that community.</p>

<p>Again, many thanks for the thoughts and comments–I have a lot of thinking and reading and discussing to do!</p>

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<p>One of the most beautiful aspects of Judaism which was not carried over to Christianity is the notion of how forgiveness must be sought. I believe Jews, before Yom Kippur, are supposed to personally apologize to anyone they might have offended or hurt instead of asking forgiveness directly from G-d, or through a Priest. I like the idea of having to make direct amends. That’s not to say you can’t do that if you are a Christian, if you feel like it. </p>

<p>I especially like that central to both Christianity and Judaism is the Golden Rule: We should treat others the way we would like to be treated. I believe Hillel taught the maxim: “That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.”</p>

<p>Sorry, silver87 for the cross-post! You posted while I was typing! The very best of luck in your journey!</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>It did carry over, at least in the Bible - it crops up in a couple of places in the Sermon on the Mount, and Paul talks about it in Colossians. In practice, though, you’re right that it’s something that is (alas) not emphasized by a lot of Christians.</p>

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<p>This might be informative and indicative, espect to the OP and UCSD_dad…who wondered each in their own way about the kinds of questions and expectations of a convert to Judaism.</p>

<p>These are the 5 basic questions a rabbi will ask of a convert during the conversion ceremony (a private service). This list extends to all the movements of Judaism. When you read these 5 questions, think not only of what is being asked (OP) but what isn’t (for USCD dad…):</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Do you of your own free will seek admittance into the Jewish faith?</p></li>
<li><p>Have you given up your former faith and severed all other religious affiliations?</p></li>
<li><p>Do you pledge your loyalty to Judaism and to the Jewish people amid all circumstances and conditions?</p></li>
<li><p>Do you promise to establish a Jewish home and to participate actively in the life of the Synagogue and of the Jewish community?</p></li>
<li><p>If you should be blessed with children, do you promise to rear them in the Jewish faith?</p></li>
</ol>

<hr>

<p>That’s it. The question, “do you believe in God” isn’t on that list. But practicing Jews from every movement will tell you that that above list, when lived out, generates many spiritual understandings and discoveries that bring a person closer to a personal relationship with God, Who is described and understood in numerous ways among Jewish people. Even agnostics and theo-doubters can carry out the above program. </p>

<p>Woven into the conversion commitment is loyalty to the history and future of the Jewish people, so it’s more than a personal belief; it becomes a communal identity (Questions 3, 4 and 5; Chedva’s points referenced these). </p>

<p>UCSD’s question about Jesus belief is addressed by question #2; the boyfriend’s presence that I explored a bit is in question #1; the Christmas tree can be thought through in questions #4 and 5…</p>

<p>The courses and studies help a person learn enough to know if they’re ready and willing to answer those 5 questions. The courses can’t teach you everything…that takes a lifetime!!</p>

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<p>Flame suit on !</p>

<p>I have two friends that faced the same situation. And they did everything prescribed. But to no avail. </p>

<p>Years after, they both said: “I was never really accepted” </p>

<p>Their tradition!, i.e., The old rules come first. </p>

<p>Sorry.</p>

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<p>^^No flames! I believe that happened to your friends, and I am sorry!</p>

<p>There are a lot of attitudinal things that the Jewish community is working on to learn to welcome people better. Sometimes it’s just the luck of who the in-laws are and the way they engage others. Some of the movements have committees called “Outreach” to work on better attitudes and congregational policies. Misplaced fears from antiSemitism play in where they shouldn’t. </p>

<p>Whenever I meet someone who is disrespecting a “convert” to Judaism (who rightfully should be called “a Jew” not “a convert”…), I tell them right away to stop; that their disrespect violates a Talmudic teaching: “Do not remind someone they once had pork between their teeth!”</p>

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<p>At Rosh Hashanah, our rabbi gave a very impassioned sermon about the importance of treating non-Jews (who were married with Jews, and were raising any children Jewish) as completely welcome in every aspect of our congregational life. At our temple, non-Jews participate, sometimes with more vigor than the born Jews :-). The only things that they are prohibited from would be certain religious aspects, e.g., an aliyot. </p>

<p>When my children had their bar / bat mitzvah, my mother and grandmother (not Jewish) were included on the bima; they did not participate in the passing down of the Torah, but they were included in the procession and clearly honored for their role.</p>

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<p>Re accepting converts, sadly, some people (of the older generation, I believe) persist in thinking they are better than others because of an accident of birth. Sometimes it’s an in-law problem. </p>

<p>Silver87, I believe you have a Jewish neshama (soul)! Good luck in your journey!</p>

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<p>In our synagogue, and I believe in the Reform Movement, those who have converted to Judaism are called “Jews by choice” as opposed to “Jews by birth.”</p>

<p>toblin, I don’t doubt that this happened to your friends. Some pockets in any community can be insular - I’ve had it happen to me and I am a Jew by birth, but because I wasn’t raised in that shul I was always an outsider. Like in Maine: anyone who hasn’t been there for 3 generations is a newcomer! Or the Italian family that never fully accepts the Irish daughter-in-law although she’s still Catholic. I hope there are fewer and fewer of those insular communities. (And not to blame anyone specifically, I wonder if there wasn’t some “I did it just for the kids” attitude or other off-putting attitude by the friends that exacerbated the problems.)</p>

<p>I have often heard the phrase that converts make the best Catholics - same for Jews! If one does fully embrace the choice one has made, Judaism can be extremely rewarding on a familial, social, communal and spiritual level.</p>

<p>Good luck to you in your journey, silver87. Whether you become a Jew by choice or not, I’m sure that your exploration will lead to spiritual growth and a deeper understanding of yourself and your G-d.</p>

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<p>I echo the sentiments. You’re clearly a thoughtful and good person, silver87. Best of wishes to you in your journeys.</p>

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<p>A couple of other Jewish perspectives:</p>

<p>Humanistic Judaism - Founded by a Michigan rabbi in the '60s, this denomination combines Jewish culture and tradition with secular humanistic beliefs. It welcomes interfaith couples and the children of intermarriage. [Society</a> for Humanistic Judaism - Home Page](<a href=“http://www.shj.org/]Society”>http://www.shj.org/)</p>

<p>Inclusivist Judaism - This is not a denomination, but an outreach project. It is being started by rabbinical student Robin Margolis, a matrilineal child of intermarriage and founder of the Half-Jewish Network, and is a “targeted spiritual and cultural outreach” project aimed at children (whether matrilineal or patrilineal) of intermarriage and other disaffiliated Jews. [Why</a> I Started The Half-Jewish Network - InterfaithFamily.com](<a href=“http://www.interfaithfamily.org/relationships/growing_up_in_an_interfaith_family/Why_I_Started_The_Half-Jewish_Network.shtml]Why”>http://www.interfaithfamily.org/relationships/growing_up_in_an_interfaith_family/Why_I_Started_The_Half-Jewish_Network.shtml)</p>

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<p>Even the old rules say a convert must be accepted and not treated any differently. In practice, there are still Orthodox Jews who feel all the future grandchild’s extended family should be Jewish so the grandchildren are not confused about who they are. In some families, this can be a powerful reason to try to keep a child from marrying a converted Jew, even if the conversion was Orthodox – a very painful scenario.</p>