Religious Conversion in Marriage/Childrearing?

Parent Cafe
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<p>Yeshiva’s back in session today? Cool.</p>

<p>Here are two “old lore” points that demonstrate inclusivity (“new-speak”) for such folks as Je-ne-sais-quoi encounters: </p>

<ol>
<li>Each year, in all synagogues, the Book of Ruth is read from BIble, yearly at Shavuot. </li>
</ol>

<p>Synopsis: When Ruth (from Moab), her sister and their Hebrew mother-in-law Naomi all became widowed at the same moment, Naomi decided to return to her kin back in Israel. Naomi said goodbye to both her D-I-L’s, and Ruth’s sister stayed put. But Ruth kept walking with Naomi. Naomi encouraged Ruth to stay in her own country, saying it would be “better” for Ruth that way. Yet Ruth insisted: “Your people shall be my people, your God my God.” and followed Naomi into Israel to live out her life among the Jewish people. She’s considered the exemplar convert.</p>

<p>Ruth’s grandson became King David, who never seemed to suffer from any Jewish identity confusion (although he suffered in some other ways, as all humans do). </p>

<p>Point being made (all over Sunday schools, everywhere) that a conversion, freely made, stands for all future generations, forever. Further, in Jewish lore, when a story shows “the most” (like a King of Israel…) then all the more so for the common folks. If one of our most powerful leaders in history came from a grandma who chose Judaism, that’s indicative “all the more so” for us everyday types. </p>

<ol>
<li>When someone is born Jewish, they are given a Hebrew name with the surname being their parents’ first names. When someone converts to Judaism, they are offered this lofty Hebrew name: “(First Name), Child of Abraham and Sarah.” Those are the spiritual ancestors assigned, and since Abraham and Sarah were the first Jews ever, it doesn’t get any better than that. It’s like saying, upon becoming an American citizen, that one is the spiritual child of George and Martha Washington.</li>
</ol>

<p>Point being: the reason those names are assigned is so that no born Jew should ever challenge them by saying “my Jewish ancestry is superior to yours.”</p>

42

<p>"It is something of a Protestant quirk to regard religion as “primarily about spiritual beliefs”. "</p>

<p>Also something of a Catholic–quirk, you say? I don’t think I would use the word ‘quirk’. We Catholics regard our faith as all about ‘spiritual beliefs’. So we naturally assume that other religions are also about spiritual beliefs. I would certainly think that the Jewish faith is primarily concerned with spiritual beliefs, given that the God of Abraham is a Spirit! I’m sure there are secondary aspects, such as traditions, etc., but the essential core of Judaism, to me, ought to be-- and probably is to Orthodox Jews-- about spiritual beliefs. I don’t know enough to hazard a guess about Reform Jews or even Conservative Jews.</p>

43

<p>Of course there is a spiritual component to Judaism; it is, after all, a religion. It’s just that actions and obedience to the rules and ritual is more important than the belief. Our G-d does not insist that one must believe before one can be rewarded in the World to Come. In fact, questioning both the existence and the nature of G-d is considered, certainly by Orthodoxy, to be a holy endeavor.</p>

<p>Two illustrations:</p>

<p>In the story of the Exodus, the Israelites wandered in the desert and G-d sent them manna to eat to sustain them. On the sixth day, G-d sent a double portion of manna so that they would not have to gather the manna on the seventh day. But, note that the Torah talks about this double portion before it talks about Moses ascending Mount Sinai. So G-d sent them the double portion before G-d established the Sabbath. G-d prepared the people to receive the laws of the Sabbath before they knew why it was happening. Action preceded belief.</p>

<p>There is also a *midrash<a href=“a%20story%20about%20the%20stories%20in%20the%20Bible”>/I</a>, which may be in the Talmud as well, about the questions G-d will ask on the Day of Judgment. G-d will not ask, “Do you believe in Me?” or “Did you go to synagogue?” or “Did you keep all My Commandments?” Rather, G-d will ask, “Were you honest in your business?” How one treated one’s fellow beings, the respect for them, and the honesty shown is more important than anything else.</p>

<p>I suppose the difference is that Judaism is usually concerned with the “here and now” - with this world, rather than the notion of salvation in the next.</p>

44

<p>What I was trying to communicate, schoolmarm, is that your perception of Judaism is almost exactly backwards. While lots of Orthodox Jews certainly have “spiritual beliefs”, traditional Judaism is about community and behavior, not belief. You follow the laws and perform the commandments. Obviously, it helps if you believe the commandments have a divine source, and strict Jewish practice is likely to make you feel like you are in a relationship with the divine, but there is a long, long tradition in Judaism that it doesn’t matter whether you believe or not if you are conforming to the law. (That tradition predates Jesus of Nazareth; he and his followers rebelled against it as hypocritical, remember?)</p>

<p>Now, “Orthodox Jews” are hardly a monolithic group, and many of them are very spiritual people, whose spirituality and personal relationship to God are central to their lives. But that’s not required at all. Ironically, the Reform movement, which originated in Germany in the 19th century, tends to have a much more Christian view of the world. Explicitly or implicitly, Reform Judaism sees religion and religious practice as a personal choice, a matter of conscience, and as a distinct sphere separate from other things people engage in, like work. So, while Reform Jews spend less time on specifically Jewish practice, they connect it to spiritual belief more.</p>

<p>I distinguished between Catholic and Protestant doctrine in my original post because my impression is that Catholicism is closer to Judaism in this regard. It is not necessary to have a personal spiritual experience to be a good Catholic, whereas personal conversion and being touched by God’s grace is central to many forms of Protestantism.</p>

45

<p>

</p>

<p>I’ve just finished A.J. Jacobs’ The Year of Living Biblically. A secular/agnostic Jew, Jacobs decided to live strictly (as much as a 21st c. guy in NYC can) according to the Bible for a year. What he found was that the actions he took, including praying, even though he didn’t believe, gradually altered his mindset. He didn’t emerge from his year as an observant Jew (or Christian - he also followed the NT towards the end), but his interior landscape was altered. He became aware of the sacred. His beliefs changed as a result of his actions.</p>

<p>C.S. Lewis talks about this in Mere Christianity as well:</p>

<p>

</p>

46

<p>I totally agree. Much of the time we don’t act as we really feel. We are polite and do not act upon our baser impulses. It’s called being civilized. </p>

<p>We have to train our children to behave in an acceptable way until it becomes second nature. For most of them, this is not “natural” behavior.</p>

47

<p>Just adding melody to the discussion about “Actions precede belief.” </p>

<p>Here’s a song (I think from Sound of Music, and remembered imperfectly). While not spot-on theologically, it illustrates the feelings:</p>

<p>"Whenever I feel afraid
I hold my head erect
I whistle a happy tune
And no one can suspect
I’m afraid…</p>

<p>While shivering in my shoes,
I [hum a happy tune?]
I [la-la-la-la-la-la]
And no one ever knows
I’m afraid.</p>

<p>The result of this deception
Is very plain to tell
For when I fool
The people I fool,
I fool myself as well…"</p>

48

<p>^^p3t, great illustration. You had the composer/lyricist right (Rodgers & Hammerstein), but it’s from The King and I.</p>

49

<p>"What I was trying to communicate, schoolmarm, is that your perception of Judaism is almost exactly backwards. While lots of Orthodox Jews certainly have “spiritual beliefs”, traditional Judaism is about community and behavior, not belief. "</p>

<p>Belief vs action also explains the discomfort that even secular Jews have with Christmas trees, etc. in their homes … to the Christian person, a menorah is just a candelabra, but the Jewish person, putting up a Christmas tree is an action.</p>

50

<p>. . . .
While shivering in my shoes
I strike a careless pose
And whistle a happy tune
So no one every knows
I’m afraid
. . . .
For when I fool
The people I fear
I fool myself as well!</p>

<p>Just whistle a happy tune
And every single time
The happiness in the tune
Convinces me that I’m
Not afraid</p>

51

<p>aw thanks, Chedva and JHS. I’m whistling it even now. :)</p>

52

<p>I’m still trying to come to grips with this discounting of the spiritual aspect of Judaism - </p>

<p>So if one wants to convert, primarily for convenience in raising the kids in the particular religion without confusing them, or to accompany their spouse to services, or because he/she just likes the food and cultural aspects, but doesn’t believe in the supernatural aspects of the religion and therefore wasn’t willing to pray, etc., but was willing to follow the basic aspects of not breaking commandments, etc., would they be welcomed into the religion by the religious authorities? I understand that some ‘traditionalists’ might not be so accepting but otherwise, could they officially be considered a Jew at that point?</p>

<p>Could it be that I’m almost Jewish but just don’t realize it? :)</p>

53

<p>Not quite ucdad. It’s actually hard to convert, for the reasons I described above. I wasn’t kidding when I wrote about jumping through 50 hoops for three years until they get tired of turning you down and decide that anyone that crazy has to be Jewish. Because Judaism doesn’t seek converts, and traditionally regards them with suspicion, converting is a real pain in the butt. </p>

<p>Essentially, it involves lots of education, and living publicly as a Jew, obeying the commandments, for some extended period of time, and then submitting to an examination by a rabbinical court (panel of rabbis) that may hear testimony from others and examines you on your understanding of Jewish law, identification with the Jewish people, and commitment. (Now, that CAN be a softball hearing if they all know you and like you, but that’s appropriate – if you can assemble a rabbinical court that is willing to give you a pass, you’re already in.)</p>

<p>Read paying3tuitions’ posts above – she’s seen a lot more of this than I. The essential questions that get asked in a Reform conversion (the easiest kind) don’t include belief in the supernatural aspects of the religion, but do include a lot more than liking the food and the music. And, in traditional Judaism, what I’m calling “the commandments” aren’t just the Big Ten, but hundreds of prescriptions (some of which are downright weird – keeping kosher isn’t just a matter of eating the right foods), with thousands of glosses on them, covering every aspect of daily life (which is part of why Orthodox conversion is so tough). There’s lots of praying required. You don’t have to believe it, but you have to do it. And you have to learn a bunch of archaic Hebrew in order to do it.</p>

<p>And “the religious authorities” pretty much ARE “the traditionalists”. The notion is if they say you’re alright, everyone else should believe it, too.</p>

<p>But the good news is that you don’t have to convert to raise your children as Jews or attend services with your spouse. (Although, if you go to an Orthodox synagogue, you won’t be able to sit together, since most of them segregate the sexes.) Depending on the synagogue, the “penalty” for not being a Jew is not being able to have an aliyah (saying the blessings for formal Torah reading, or actually reading the Torah out loud at a service), not counting towards a minyan (the minimum required number of adult Jews to perform most public rituals), and of course not being able to have a Jewish marriage performed. If “you” are a woman, your children would have to go through a conversion process when they become adults (i.e., in middle school) to be recognized as Jews and allowed to have a bar mitzvah, but if they have been raised as Jews that shouldn’t be so difficult.</p>

54

<p>

Ah, but praying is one of the rules of the faith. In Orthodoxy, men are required to pray on arising, go to three formal services every day (the afternoon and evening services are often combined), and on going to bed. Women are required to say various blessings throughout the day, to bless the candles on the Sabbath and holidays, to say the blessings over bread before meals, etc. </p>

<p>Most converts who want to raise children as Jews also go to services with them, at least in the years that they’re in Hebrew school. Jewish services are quite long - Friday night services tend to last about an hour, Saturday morning can last from 2 hours (Reform) to 5 hours (Orthodox), and Saturday evening another hour (generally only Orthodox). These are separate services and one goes to both Friday night and Saturday morning services.</p>

<p>So one could not, particularly in Orthodoxy, refuse to pray.</p>

<p>But in Judaism, there is no requirement that one believe.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes, there are 613 positive and negative commandments. And according to tradition, the Big Ten have no more importance than any others. So it’s not just “not breaking” commandments; it’s actually following them.</p>

55

<p>Hi Silver:</p>

<p>I’m the odd-man-out in my family’s religion, and it’s kind of lonely. We’re a mix of Islam and Christianity, and my H and kids are nominally Muslim.</p>

<p>Think long and hard. While your attrachments to your religion might seem shallow now, they will take on more importance when kids come along. I’d be clear about the arrangements beforehand… what holidays will you celebrate? How? What kind of religious observance and education will the kids have? I’d try to think through every eventuality.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

56

<p>thank you for posting this, silver87; i’m in a similar situation, and i’ve learned a lot from the responses.</p>

<p>my boyfriend of over a year is jewish (conservative, though he describes himself as closer to the reform end of the spectrum than to the orthodox one), with a jewish father and a still-practicing catholic mother. i was raised nominally swedish lutheran but haven’t considered myself christian for the last decade. </p>

<p>in the hypothetical event that we were to have kids, he’d want to raise them jewish, as would i; not only is it an important part of his family’s heritage, but in the time we’ve been together (during which we’ve had multiple conversations about this, and i have celebrated jewish holidays with his family), i’ve come to appreciate the traditions and rituals. i’ve never identified with christianity & would not be able to raise christian children, but i don’t feel the same discomfort about judaism.</p>

<p>none of which, as chedva pointed out above, means that i necessarily have to convert, and at the moment that’s not something i am ready to decide whether i might consider (that was circuitous, but it’s reflective of where i currently stand, or don’t, on that issue). i don’t believe in god, which i thought was a problem though chedva and paying3tuitions are indicating that it might not be?, or maybe i just have a problem with the christian god, or–? so clearly i still have far to go. :slight_smile: from what i understand so far, i’m deeply sympathetic to the fundamental principles of judaism, but the worshipping a god part, probably as a result of my upbringing, still evokes a sort of anthropomorphic old-man-in-the-sky image that i can’t really stomach. i am not sure yet to what extent this is problematic. (maybe i just need to update my perception of what “god” means?)</p>

<p>regardless of all that, i have decided to start attending services at my college’s hillel, & i would also like to take a class on judaism at some point. if anyone has books to recommend, i would greatly appreciate that, too.</p>

<p>i don’t really have a particular question, but it’s interesting to hear the varying perspectives on this issue, so thanks everyone for contributing. :)</p>

57

<p>One possible book you might want to read is “The Jewish Book of Why” - it’s in a kind of question & answer format, so it’s easy to pick up and put down.</p>

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<p>Camelia, if you ever need to talk to someone who has walked this path, please write to me. The book recommended by Chedva is a great one.</p>

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<p>If you’re in the Boston area, you might want to try [A</a> Taste of Judaism](<a href=“http://www.reformjudaismboston.org/content.php?id=110]A”>http://www.reformjudaismboston.org/content.php?id=110), a course for non-Jews and Jews to learn about Judaism without any pressure about converting. There may be similar courses in other areas.</p>

60

<p>Well, this thread seems to have died off a couple years ago, but it seems that a few questions were left unanswered apropos of conversions to Judaism.</p>

<p>In halacha (Jewish law), the only kind of conversions to Judaism recognized as legitimate are those performed by an Orthodox beis din. All conversions performed by people affiliated with the reform, conservative, or reconstructionist movements are considered invalid and do not actually make anyone legally (i.e. halachically) Jewish. That is the view of halacha, as upheld by Orthodox Judaism. Needless to say, those outside orthodoxy will say otherwise, but the reform, conservative, and reconstructionist movements are not actually Judaism but rather separate religions.</p>

<p>If one’s only impetus to convert is to be able to marry someone, then the conversion is invalid.</p>