Religious discussion: God and war

Parent Cafe
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<p>I know there have been a lot of heated discussions about religion on this forum. I would like to discuss one particular topic: your perception of how God views war and violence, as opposed to peace and love.</p>

<p>What prompted this was that yesterday I was discussing the concept of war with someone (a Christian, though I don’t know which denomination) who told me that he believes God is in favor of the Iraqi war, and war in general, since the bible is ‘full of wars.’ He then went on to say that Jesus was NOT all about peace (when I referred to him as the Prince of Peace) and that that was a misconception; that Jesus was quite a warrior and advocate of war.</p>

<p>I found his comments disconcerting and even disturbing.</p>

<p>For clarity, I will state here that I was brought up Catholic, then was a born-again Christian for a few years, and later rejected all religious dogma in favor of a personal spirituality with a foundation of LOVE and PEACE and respect for all living beings. I view violence as ugly and anti-God, and to be used ONLY in a very last resort (when one is being directly attacked - never on a preemptive basis).</p>

<p>I have great respect for Jesus as a very high being, a great avatar. I believe, even though you might be able to pick out certain phrases and interpret them in different ways, that the essence of his overall message was one of LOVE, PEACE, COMPASSION, and FORGIVENESS.</p>

<p>I feel very disconcerted at what this young man told me yesterday. Since it has been about 20 years since I left organized religion, I am curious whether there has been a major shift in interpretation. I don’t recall anything from my Catholic background that in any way glorified war or attributed a warrior-like persona to Jesus. On the contrary, I remember an emphasis on love and peace and kindness and mercy, and I have attempted to retain those values with with I was raised.</p>

<p>So, I am trying to understand the mindset of what is now a large segment of the US population. I know that no individual person can speak for everyone in his/her denomination, but maybe you can give me an idea as to whether this particular young man was typical or not.</p>

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<p>What I find pretty scary is the influence on religion especially the born again fundamentalist types in the armed forces- a kind of Army for Christ mentality that seems to be getting more and more entrenched- doing “God’s Work” </p>

<p><a href=“http://militaryreligiousfreedom.org/[/url]”>http://militaryreligiousfreedom.org/&lt;/a&gt; is suing the government </p>

<p>and to some chaos in the middle east if biblical leading to the end times</p>

<p>yep indeedy</p>

<p>Col. David Antoon (ret.), another alumnus of the AFA and now a 747 commercial pilot, says his heart was broken when he took his son, Ryan, to an orientation at the academy in the spring of 2004. An overt evangelistic approach during part of the orientation so upset them, he says, that they decided his son would reject the treasured appointment and instead go to Ohio State University.</p>

<p>Building God’s (Christian) Army
By Jane Lampman, Christian Science Monitor. Posted October 19, 2007.</p>

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<p>Yes, that is the exact gist of this thread. I don’t understand how religion, specifically religions based on the early books of the old testament (which Islam shares, if I’m not mistaken), have become so militaristic. Whatever happened to the focus on love?</p>

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<p>Crusades…its all about power…</p>

<p>Seems most evangelicals support the war and all that results in</p>

<p>I can’t wrap my head around it either- yes Jesus was angry, but don’t think he advocated killing kids in his name</p>

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<p>lealdragon… from my experience, this argument will basically wind down to those who believe in a literal interpretation of the bible vs. those who don’t. Often religious arguments are formed on one’s insistence on how to interpret the bible. This can be said about most controversial issues: homosexuality, abortion, etc. So while the dialogue about whether just war exists will basically boil down to what someone believes the bible represents.</p>

<p>That being said, Roman Catholics typically are known for their stance on preaching, teaching and living out the social gospel. They would probably be the last ones (less the Mennonites and similar groups) to justify war as a general group, so I’m affirming your experience as a former Roman Catholic in that area. I can’t think of any Roman Catholics that would approve the kind of war we’re in, based on what God says in the bible. In fact, next week, I will be attending a lecture in our area, given by a Jesuit activist and priest who will be addressing the profit in war, especially the Blackwater scandal. I am looking forward to hearing what he is saying, although I’m not Catholic (was, but left it 15 years ago).</p>

<p>citygirlsmom - several years ago the Air Force Academy was under fire for its evangelical propaganda. A study was done by a group from the Yale Divinity School showing the abuse of those who did not adhere to their superiors evangelical practices. One of the air force chaplains (Melinda Morton), was basically fired for supporting the study because it confirmed her experiences with the Air Force cadets. She has made the lecture circuit and I was privileged to hear her a couple of years ago. The stories she told about the spiritual abuse that occured when she was there, were truly horrifying. There are too many to repeat here, unless the readers want me to share. </p>

<p>Rent the movie ‘Jesus Camp’ and you’ll get an idea of the lengths that some “Christians” will go to, to brainwash their kids into tapping into this kind of militaristic mentality. It’s very, very scary.</p>

<p>One of my seminary professor’s sons desperately wanted to attend the AFA, as his lifetime dream is to become a commercial pilot. Melinda Morton, who is friends with this professor had to highly advise him against the AFA, knowing that he is gay. Once you enter the AFA, you basically have to deny your sexual orientation if you are not straight. This has caused some kids to crack, but they can’t leave after a certain point or they are financially responsible for paying back the AFA. But there’s definitely a evangelical bent to the leadership there, and until someone in power nips it in the bud and takes a stance, then the kids will continue to be evangelized and punished for not practicing evangelical Christianity.</p>

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<p>If one considers the entire Bible, war is a manifestation of mankind’s sinful and fallen nature. Period!</p>

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<p>I don’t believe in a God that has any opinions about violence and war. Sometimes I do believe a force outside of us exists, but I don’t believe it resembles a personal anthropomorphic god at all.</p>

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<p>by the way, I’d just like to clarify that what I wrote earlier in my posts are my observations. A topic like this is unfortunately, very unlikely to make everyone happy, but if we can keep it to our observations and experiences, then it might remain productive.</p>

<p>Regarding Islam, you have to remember that much of what we see in the media is the extremist side. I have been in dialogue with practicing Muslim teachers and the one thing that truly breaks their heart is that they are being judged by what a faction of extremists do. Islam is truly a faith of peace and non-violence. Just as there are extreme Christian sects that make the news (the Branch Davidian cult, abortion clinic bombings, Fred Phelps, etc.) and propogate what non-Christian nations think of us, Islam has the same. Mainline Islam preaches peace over and above all else. I know some here will not agree with me, but this is what I’ve been taught through my various seminary classes.</p>

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<p>leal - it is best not to let the man’s opinions affect you in any way. After all, he claims to know things that cannot be known. When it comes to religion, we can all believe what we like, but none of us knows anything.</p>

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<p>I agree about not forming an opinion based on just one person. But, this was not an isolated incident. I’ve noticed a trend - many people Ive talked to over the last few years seem to be more into the idea of a wrathful God, and even seem enthusiastic about the idea of ‘enemies’ dying, instead of feeling compassion and praying for peace. Instead of viewing war as something ugly, they really seem to be ‘into’ it.</p>

<p>I realize that this is a delicate subject. I hope we can discuss this respectfully. I would like to invite the religious to step out of their dogma for just a minute (if that’s possible) and consider this objectively:</p>

<p>A co-worker once told me that he and his wife had decided to become atheists. Formerly Catholics, they decided that they were better people - more loving, kinder and more giving - when they did it for the ‘right’ reasons instead of for the reason of trying to please God or to escape the fires of ‘hell.’ He said that in the year since they’d quit believing in God, they had really enjoyed being more generous and loving to others and felt that they were genuinely better people.</p>

<p>Although I do believe in God, I found his ideas intriguing. Here is my question: What kind of people would we be if we didn’t have religious dogma? I know that religious people will say ‘sinners’ and ‘we are worthless without Christ’ but I find that idea flawed, as there are obviously many good, kind people who aren’t religious, and many religious people who aren’t very nice.</p>

<p>So, what about the living spirit (or Holy Spirit) that dwells in each of us? Why can we not trust that to guide us? Especially when that spirit seems to be in direct conflict with the so-called ‘word of God’ which is a book.</p>

<p>No offense intended here to anyone, but I am really just trying to understand why people follow a book in the first place, when it directly conflicts with what we consider the best aspects of human nature - the very traits we tend to admire in others: love, peace, kindness, compassion, etc.</p>

<p>For example, to me, violence is repugnant. Only in the direst of emergencies, when ALL other options have failed, would I consider it justified. Yet these people told me that I am wrong, because a book (that they believe in but I don’t) has stories of people killing one another, with ‘God’s’ blessing.</p>

<p>I cannot resolve this.</p>

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<p>If he was referring to what he’d call the “Old Testament” it records many wars, but for the purpose of demonstrating how nations that tried repeatedly to destroy the Israelites were met with wars of self-defense. It doesn’t always say “self-defense” but when you know the history from archaeology and accounts from other peoples, that’s what you learn “between the lines.” </p>

<p>The Bible is a story of one people’s survival against all odds, and told by that people. The writers and readers understood that the subtext was this: people were always trying to wipe out the Israelites, we fought back, we survived. Why is that a surprise? All ancient peoples recorded their stories this way. We fought here, we fought there, and here’s the body count. </p>

<p>The Old Testament (I just call it “Bible”) is also “full” of stories of dysfunctional families and human beings with character flaws. Does that means it “supports” dysfunctionality? No, it is describing personalities and family dynamics so that people can make moral sense from stories (Abraham, Isaac…Moses…King David…all flawed). </p>

<p>Your acquaintance treated the Bible like a restaurant menu, picking and choosing what matches his theory, and taking away none of the other messages. </p>

<p>The Bible is also “full” of the books of Prophets and Writings (not just the first 5 books of Moses), who urged us to seek justice and “Pursue Peace” (in other words, work hard to achieve peace…“pursue” because peace doesn’t always come passively. </p>

<p>War was not seen as the optimal state of being but evidence of disrepair, a source of great sorrow. The Bible is NOT full of celebrations and rejoicings over the wars, not even the victories…but just documents them by location and numbers who died. </p>

<p>One of the powerful lessons at every Passover seder is the diminishment of the wine cup as the Ten Plagues are recited, with the rabbinic message (post-Biblical) that we don’t rejoice over the deaths of enemies, not even the Egyptians who enslaved us. Moses’ sister Miriam dances with a tambourine for joy when the Israelites cross over on dry land through the Red Sea. Moments later, with Phraroah’s change of heart to retrieve the slaves, the slaves watch the entire Egyptian army rush onto the same dry land, but then are drowned by the rapidly refilling sea. Commentaries on Bible point out that there is no more tambourine dancing or rejoicing by the newly freed people even as they witnessed that sight of the drowning of the Egyptian army. This is just a small sample of the later commentaries which “evolved” and brought modern meanings to the ancient text. (I won’t say “perfected” because that word sticks in my throat…and new commentaries are still being written today.)</p>

<p>You can’t really understand Bible without also knowing some Commentaries and history for more context. It’s not all “chapter and verse” stuff. I was taught that it’s a primary source from its times with tremendous moral lessons to be derived today, but only by wading through the many commentaries on an ancient text can you figure out what it meant to the people who wrote and read it. Study bible and later commentaries, rather than just “read” and quote Biblical verses, if you’re trying to derive moral meanings from that text. </p>

<p>Obviously, I’m no New Testament scholar! But I had been hearing that there are new Christian theologies that describe Jesus as a political rebel, activist, and social leader. But even that sounds a long way from Jesus as warmonger or cheerleader to war.</p>

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<p>teriwtt & p3t: Your posts clearly reflect what is a reasonable interpretation of the bible. I agree completely that, when viewed in this way, the bible can be a source of much wisdom.</p>

<p>My concern is that so many are no longer interpreting this very complex book with such a reasonable view, but seek passages that reinforce their judgmental, violent nature.</p>

<p>Which leads me to believe that whether people are ‘good’ (kind, loving, peaceful - ascribing to those qualities we admire) or ‘bad’ (quick to judge, quick to draw the sword, and delight in the bloodshed) has actually very little, if anything, to do with whether they read the book or not.</p>

<p>Hence, if you follow my logic, although I sincerely respect those who choose to gain wisdom & inspiration from the book, apparently their reading of the book has no bearing on what sort of person they are. Apparently, there are both good and bad people to be found everywhere, and any one segment of society is not necessarily any better than any other. </p>

<p>I remember a song from Catholic school entitled ‘They Will Know We Are Christians by Our Love.’ It was one of my favorites as a child, and I still remember the melody. What has become of this ideal? That Christianity = Love?</p>

<p>Obviously, there are people of other religions, such as Buddhism, who practice the virtues which we tend to hold in high esteem: calm, centered attitude, kindness, loving…</p>

<p>As well as Atheists and various others…who are kind and loving.</p>

<p>So it appears to me that one can get whatever they want out of the bible. If they are of a violent nature, they can find plenty in the bible to justify their violent actions, just as the radical Moslems do with their book (while ignoring the good passages favored by the peaceful Moslems).</p>

<p>What is disturbing is that, while we are well aware of the radical factions of Islam, few seem to acknowledge that the beginning of that same sort of attitude is beginning to develop here among the more extreme Christians.</p>

<p>The spiritual tradition I now subscribe to (which is not an organized religion but eclectic in nature) views the present era as ‘The Choice’ meaning that those of us living during this time are faced with a Choice as to which path we will follow - the light or the dark.</p>

<p>But the dark is not a simplistic ‘non-Christian’ but, rather, an ORIENTATION towards that which is usually thought of as ‘evil’ - hate, judgment, power, greed, selfishness, controlling of others, violence… While those oriented towards the Light strive for those qualities usually admired by most of humanity: love, forgiveness, compassion, peace, kindness, generosity…</p>

<p>This idea makes sense to me because it encompasses all that which we hold dear. Few would claim that a serial killer should be revered, and most would agree that a philanthropist is to be admired…so why, then, are these traits not clearly delineated in Christianity? Why are the lines blurred as to what is good and what is not? How can violence be glorified, and compassion scoffed at? WHAT HAS HAPPENED? It seems to have become more about a political agenda than the essence of what we know to be true, that which resonates deeply within us all.</p>

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<p>If this is true, then it ought not be glorified, right? Christians should strive to rise above it, right? Just as they strive to rise above wanton lust and other undesirables?</p>

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<p>What is the AFA? I assume a military academy, but is it privately owned or is it affiliated with the US military?</p>

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<p>He seemed a gentle soul, overall, imo. Strong but in a peaceful way. Like Ghandi.</p>

<p>Yeah, somehow I don’t quite see him picking up a gun. Just can’t see it.</p>

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<p>Luke 6, 27-38</p>

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<p>One needs to determine whether you want to talk about the concept of “the just war”, or whether you just want to have another kvetching session deploring the presence of evangelical Christians. So far this is headed down the “road well-traveled”.</p>

<p>Actually Thomas Acquinas did some work on the just war, so a fair amount of the idea behind it originated in Catholicism. </p>

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<p>I think I’ll draw my personal fear quotient from outside the US armed forces.
More than enough to worry about there. Yesirreeebob.</p>

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<p>Thanks, dadx. I had hoped this would be the point of the thread. Are Christians always to be pacifists, or are there occasions (such as WWII) when war is justified? And how do we determine what is a “just war” and what isn’t? Here’s a place to start: <a href=“http://www.iep.utm.edu/j/justwar.htm[/url]”>http://www.iep.utm.edu/j/justwar.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>" or whether you just want to have another kvetching session deploring the presence of evangelical Christians. So far this is headed down the “road well-traveled”.</p>

<p>Thank you for posting this, DadX. I am fascinated by the topic, but if it becomes just another wide-eyed, “look how much more smart/sophisticated/compassionate/wonderful I am than those Christians” topic, then I may stay away. I’d love for Drosselmeier to pop in.
As far as the issue of war and Christianity, the US government is not “Christian” in the way that I believe Christianity is a personal relationship between an individual human being and God, so I’m not sure that applies. In a general sense (I am NOT going to debate Iraq), the government must operate according to Constitutional principles and Christianity shouldn’t come into play. I don’t support the Iraq war and never have, but I am surely not a pacifist (I am a Moravian) and could definitely see myself supporting a war that I thought preserved my way of life or to defend this country if need be. My father was a naval officer in WWII, Korea and Vietnam who saw much combat. He was one of the most honorable Christians I’ve ever met.</p>

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<p>Everybody, on both sides of every war, is always convinced that God is on their side.</p>

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<p>AFA = United States Air Force Academy</p>

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<p>Thanks for the quote, garland. Those are some very strong statements! Those statements by Jesus, plus his ACTIONS, demonstrate that he was a gentle, peaceful person. He even forgave those who had KILLED him!</p>

<p>He also repeatedly said that we were to do as he did. “All these things I do, you shall do also, and greater still.”</p>

<p>Why, then, do some people pick out a few isolated phrases about him coming with a sword (which could be interpreted any number of ways, btw) to justify killing many thousands of people?</p>

<p>Are they THAT certain that their interpretation is correct, that they are willing to throw away the very CLEAR statements of “love your enemies” ? It seems that few people are actually willing to even attempt to love their enemies. I know, it’s a pretty tall order. Love those who have been violent? Wow, how do we do that, anyway? </p>

<p>I draw 3 conclusions from this:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I think it’s a mistake to use a BOOK to justify something that is generally agreed upon by most decent humans to be WRONG - the taking of human life. I don’t care if one do think the book is the ‘word of God’ - not everyone shares that belief and no one has the right to hurt others on account or THEIR beliefs. </p></li>
<li><p>Even if they do insist on making political decisions based on the bible, they are picking and choosing the scriptures that suit them.</p></li>
<li><p>In terms of following Jesus’ instructions to love, Christianity has essentially FAILED. I rarely seem to hear "Jesus taught us to love our enemies. Therefore violence is unacceptable. We MUST find another solution.’ </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Ghandi found a non-violent solution, and it worked. Ghandi was following the teachings of Jesus. But I’ve heard Christians say that he was not Christian!</p>

<p>Which brings me back to my original point:</p>

<p>What is it that makes one Christian? Many of the modern evangelical Christians say it is whether or not they have ‘accepted Jesus.’ No longer does it have ANYTHING to do with whether they are FOLLOWING his teachings. </p>

<p>No longer does it have anything to do with love and forgiveness, like in the old Catholic song I mentioned in an earlier post.</p>

<p>It seems to me that Christianity, at least evangelical Christianity, has become focused on selfishness. Save your own butt, get to heaven, and try to take as many people with you as you can (which often ends up being more about control and fear than it is about love) but don’t bother trying to adhere to Jesus’ very fundamental principles (‘love your enemies’) while on Earth.</p>

<p>The bible speaks of false prophets. If ever there was a false prophet, someone claiming to be of Christ, and all white-washed on the outside but on the inside like ‘dead man’s bones’ then it is the modern-day preachers who preach war and violence in their churches, and lead their flocks down a path of selfishness and violence, based on the FEAR of going to ‘hell.’ That is a fear-based religion, not a LOVE-based religion.</p>

<p>So, isolated scriptures aside, was Jesus about love or violence?</p>

<p>If you say both, like the young man I spoke with a few days ago, then what is the point of it all? Just to get lucky enough to save yourself? This man actually very nearly spat out the words that non-Christians should burn in ‘hell!’ Where is the forgiveness, the compassion, the love? Is that what Jesus would have done?</p>