Religious discussion: God and war

Parent Cafe
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<p>“Today’s Christians say it is whether or not they have ‘accepted Jesus.’ No longer does it have ANYTHING to do with whether they are FOLLOWING his teachings.”</p>

<p>Please watch the generalizations, Leal. If you would like to learn more about mainstream Protestantism, I’d be happy to give you some info, but please remember that not all Christians are the same. None or better or worse than others, but we don’t all practice the same way. Thank you.</p>

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<p>zooser, I agree and don’t want this thread to degenerate into lashing out at Christians. My last post was in response to garland’s biblical quotes. I do think an analysis of the the Christian basis for war has everything to do with the topic, since many use that basis to start wars that affect us all. And the thread is entitled ‘Religious Discussion: God and War’ so it’s not intended to be a discussion about ‘just’ and ‘unjust’ wars without the religious component.</p>

<p>I am exploring the question of whether the very concept of war itself can be reconciled with religion, and, if so, WHY religious people choose to focus on those aspects of their scriptures, rather than the obviously contradicting passages about peace.</p>

<p>So the thread is also about exploring human nature as to why they would choose violence over peace, whether they are religious or not, since both religious people and non-religious people seem to be found on both sides, and their faith does not seem to make them any more peaceful and loving than the those of no (or different) faith.</p>

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<p>zooser, thanks for pointing out the unintended generalization. I have changed the statement in question.</p>

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<p>" In terms of following Jesus’ instructions to love, Christianity has essentially FAILED. I don’t think I’ve ever even met anyone who has said something like "Jesus taught us to love our enemies. Therefore violence is unacceptable. We MUST find another solution.’ "</p>

<p>This is one of the most hurtful things I’ve ever seen posted on this board. I respectfully submit to you that you need to get out and meet more actual Christians because most of us feel that way. I can tell you with absolute certainty that ZG wrote a paper yesterday for her required religion class that used those words and also that she lives her life that way every single day.</p>

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<p><feeling sheepish=“”></feeling></p>

<p>ok, zooser, thanks for keeping me on my toes. You are right, that statement too was uncalled for. I apologize for getting a bit carried away. Maybe it’s the area I live in - a large concentration of those who are very, er, pushy about converting others, but lately I have been hearing so much of this kind of talk, that it has disturbed me greatly. Sorry that my post degenerated into some venting.</p>

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<p>“ok, zooser, thanks for keeping me on my toes. You are right, that statement too was uncalled for. I apologize for getting a bit carried away. Maybe it’s the area I live in - a large concentration of those who are very, er, pushy about converting others, but lately I have been hearing so much of this kind of talk, that it has disturbed me greatly. Sorry that my post degenerated into some venting”</p>

<p>That’s absolutely fine and I completely understand. May I ask you where you live? I’m in New York and we don’t have a lot of evangelical Christians, so I’m completely unfamiliar. The motto of my church is “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, love.” We believe it and we live it. (See my post in the illegal immigration thread for confirmation) Mainline Protestants are among the most staunchly antiwar groups. I’m very surprised that you don’t know that.</p>

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<p>In a very general sense I believe that the one with the most power and strength is the one to determine the rules for everyone else. We can all love and forgive one another til we turn blue but this does not stop those who do not adhere to this view from using everything in their power to take what they want and destroy anyone in their path. At some point you have to stand up to the bully and the only way to stop the bully is to be more powerful than the bully. This often ends in war.</p>

<p>We can only hope that the most powerful is also the most generous, loving and kind and only wants what I believe God wants…love.</p>

<p>The problem is that not everyone agrees that God wants the same thing as I believe he does. Therefore religious “just” wars.</p>

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<p>I’m in San Antonio, home to Pastor Hagee.</p>

<p>There are huge evangelical churches, but a lot of Protestant, Baptist, and Catholic churches as well. </p>

<p>I would be very interested in some info about Protestant anti-war groups. I’m very glad to hear that!</p>

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<p>sax, do you believe that the only way to ‘stand up to the bully’ is by being like the bully? </p>

<p>imo, that is fighting fire with fire. We have lost our values if we stoop to their level and play their game.</p>

<p>Ghandi proved that it is possible to stand up the bully, and win, by using peaceful means and not backing down from those principles of peace.</p>

<p>Isn’t love supposed to be the greatest power in the universe?</p>

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<p>To put a slightly different spin on the topic: What do we think about “peace”? Everyone agrees that “peace” is the goal, but we use one word to cover a whole bunch of complex, and possibly conflicting, concepts. The Hebrews and the Greeks weren’t any better, either. It’s like the Eskimos with their 57 words for different types of snow – we have lots of words to describe different types, scales, and nuances of conflicts, but one not-very-descriptive word for what we’re trying to achieve.</p>

<p>Is it spiritual peace, nirvana? Universal justice? (I have always been fascinated with Peter Tosh’s lyric: “Everybody’s talkin bout peace / Nobody’s talkin bout justice . . . I don’t want no peace / I want equal rights and justice.” Or the protest-march variant on that: “No justice, no peace!”) The absence of armed conflict? Liberty? What?</p>

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<p>Leal, you can look here:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.ncccusa.org/[/url]”>http://www.ncccusa.org/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Wonderful! Thanks!</p>

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<p>Zoos–good link. It’s a shame that the word “Christian” has been associated with one branch, to the point of invisibility for the rest of us.</p>

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<p>In the context of this discussion, I would define peace as the absence of violence. Nonviolent resolution of conflict.</p>

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<p>“Zoos–good link. It’s a shame that the word “Christian” has been associated with one branch, to the point of invisibility for the rest of us.”</p>

<p>Amen Garland! (Sorry I couldn’t help myself). Seriously, though, I have never met an evangelical in my entire life and can’t image how they could be confused for us. I’m sure they’re wonderful people, but they don’t speak for all Christians. Is that movement more prevalent in the South?</p>

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<p>The site zooser posted is what I would think Christianity is (or should be) all about - becoming better people and effecting positive change in the world.</p>

<p>Now contrast that with:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULnAmRtxQmM[/url]”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULnAmRtxQmM&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I have not studied Ghandi but I have read about his life and his work in the context of world history at that time. He had (limited) success for a number of reasons. Ghandi advocated peaceful resistance to stop Hitler. I honestly believe that there was no way peaceful resistance would have stopped Hitler.</p>

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<p>Here is an excerpt from an interesting article I just found, which addresses this very topic:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.blacksunjournal.com/television/1006_the-horror-of-gods-christian-warriors_2007.html[/url]”>http://www.blacksunjournal.com/television/1006_the-horror-of-gods-christian-warriors_2007.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Note: I had never heard of Black Sun Journal before and know nothing about them or their other views. I just happened upon this article and have posted it since it’s about the topic we are discussing.</p>

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<p>By the way: Gandhi.</p>

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<p>Post 37……“I honestly believe that there was no way peaceful resistance would have stopped Hitler.”</p>

<p>Which is why the American right should have joined the American left and supported the anti-fascists in Spain and Roosevelt’s early efforts to aid Britain.</p>