<p>In addition to what gladgraddad says, which is very true, I think another part of it is that going to a restaurant in general is not a novel experience for many kids or parents, these days. They do not have a sense of this being a unique or “special occasion” and feel perfectly at home for better or worse. </p>
<p>And of course, some parents are just permissive. I have younger relatives with little kids and friends who have taught for years who see the changes. Unfortunately it is nothing new. My theory is that it’s not only a backlash against the stricter child rearing practices of other generations but that the permissiveness is tied in somehow with refusal to squelch a child’s creativity and “individualism.”</p>
<p>Bottom line, if you want a quiet place for a celebration or special occasion unfortunately, buyer beware - there’s always going to be a risk if you go to a family restaurant. Menu prices don’t always reflect it, but the demographics or type of restaurant might give a clue.</p>
<p>This has always been a pet peeve of mine. When my children were little and there was a rare opportunity for a night out ( with our kids with babysitter ) it irked me when other people’s kids were misbehaving.
I think this is becoming more common all over the place.
About 6 months ago , we went to a celebration for our close friend who completed her first Ironman competition.
The woman who organized it has two children that I guess are about 5 and 7…they behaved like absolute animals in the restaurant… I have seen them act up like this in other events as well. Mom and Dad are oblivious. There were two other boys there with their parents and were perfectly behaved and well mannered.
Also , my brother in-law organized a surprise birthday party for my sister which was held in a nice restaurant , during the holiday season. The place was packed and the waitstaff had to meander through the room we were in to get to some of the other parties…no one corrected the children there that were bouncing off the walls and sure enough , they collided with a waiter with a full tray. I was embarrassed to be in that room and felt terrible for the staff that had to deal with them</p>
<p>It seems that parents can generally be divided into two camps: those who think their kids can do no wrong and those who expect them to behave better than others. I was always in the latter camp, because I would rather have my kids hate me for being too strict than to have the general public hate me for letting them run amok.</p>
<p>I’d love to hear from a laissez-faire parent on this. My mil told me years ago that because my children were so well behaved they would be targets for kidnappers. However, mine were normal kids and I have a few horrifying tales of meltdowns in grocery stores or restaurants. But we left. I couldn’t always get the fit or wildness stop quickly enough. My sil and her hubby are such laissez-faire parents, and when I expressed concern about the child perhaps having an issue that needed addressing - maybe adhd, maybe autism spectrum, mil confidently told me - no, it’s just that they’re more permissive than you because they love their kids so much. lol As if my teaching my kids expectations for behavior meant I didn’t love them.</p>
<p>I think a lot of parents think it makes them more confident and assertive. The feeling of “what I do or say is always worthwhile”. Ha. My poor kids were brought up to always think about those around them. I probably crippled them. :)</p>
<p>Permissiveness isn’t love - anything but. I think it is the generation that runs around at McDonalds and Chuck E Cheese, but it’s not all that go to those places. Those that let their kids play until the food comes, but require them to sit and eat once it arrives, don’t end up as much of a problem. I think it’s the families that are at these restaurants 2 or 3 times a week, and who don’t have family meals at home. They don’t know how to sit through a meal and have a conversation. As for the menu with crayons to color, I don’t think it’s a matter of thinking they have to be entertained the entire time, but of providing one tool to keep them occupied - the adults can converse some with them, and they can color some as well. The smart parents ask them questions about their art work.</p>
<p>A large part of it is parents who let their kids do what they want, but I don’t think it’s completely about not stifling the kids - it’s about giving the parents the freedom to do what THEY want. They want to be friends with their kids, rather than parents. These are the same parents who put the kids in daycare all day, so both parents can work - when if they run the numbers they will find that the budget works better if one stays home, or only works part time. Then to have more time to spend with their kids, they take them to McDonalds and Chuck E Cheese. </p>
<p>I recall one afternoon when my middle D was about 4, her sister a baby, we went to McDonalds for a treat (went maybe once every 2 months at most). We needed to finish eating, because our next stop was a children’s program at our library, so I reminded D of our plans. A mom was at the next table with 2 girls about the same age. One of them asked her mother what a library was - she answered that it was like the bookstore, but you don’t get to keep the books. At least she knew what a bookstore was.</p>
<p>^A lot of the most egregious behavior I’ve seen comes from two-high-earner–professional-career-parents families. but I know others in the same category who are exceptionally aware, consistent parents with well-behaved children. So I hesitate to generalize. I think that that situation is often conducive to laissez-faire parenting, but it doesn’t have to be. It’s still an individual parenting choice.</p>
<p>I teach in an elementary school and school concerts have become playgrounds for some families. It is truly appalling. While the school chorus tried to be heard, younger siblings run amok at the back of the gym and worse, parents talk in conversational tones with each other, completely ignoring the performers.</p>
<p>To top that off, when their precious offspring finish their last song or toot on the trumpet, the families get up and walk out. They’re done once Junior isn’t the center of attention. When my Ds were in chorus and band, we sat through the entire performance out of respect for the OTHER children who had worked hard preparing. It’s called common courtesy. It’s any wonder to me that so many children have a warped sense of self-importance and entitlement.</p>
<p>I swear, the next time I am at a concert at my school, I am going to storm the stage and give the audience a lesson in self restraint and manners. Somebody needs to educate the parents!</p>
<p>My 3 kids are 7 & 9. We did start out at fast food places or chain family restaurants, but not very often, usually when traveling. I always had activities, crayons, quiet books etc and we got in and out as fast as possible. We can now go to reasonably nice places with them if we must–but seriously we’d rather higher a sitter. My kids would rather we did too! </p>
<p>I have to disagree about the coloring pages/menus. My kids love them and they turn into topics of many interesting conversations. Sometime they have some cool trivia/lessons, puzzles, word searches etc. My daughter just turned 9 and I suggested she might want to try ordering from the regular menu she said ok, but I can still keep the coloring page right? </p>
<p>The only time we’ll let them use electronics at dinner is if we’re at a restaurant family event that sometimes can go on for hours. </p>
<p>It really annoys me when I’m out without my kids and I see unruly/bad parenting. The worst place is Walmart, is there ever a time there isn’t a screaming child in Walmart? </p>
<p>The most pitiful thing I’ve witnessed is kids running amok at 11:00 pm on a school night at a bar/restaurant while their parents got drunk. My friends and I had to just leave because we were so disgusted. </p>
<p>Re: the nutella shirt at preschool. One day a girl in my daughter’s preK class showed up in her swimsuit. The mom was distraught/upset/ apologetic but just left the teacher to deal with it. I would have told the mom to take the kid home but that’s just me…(actually I wouldn’t have brought the kid into school. I think that would have been a mental health day for the kid.)</p>
Lets just not go there. Some parents (adults) work because they find it fulfilling and for long term planning, like when kids are gone, it is better to have something to do instead of pining away at their grown children. I have worked almost everyday of my life. My kids had their own nannies growing up, but I would say they are very self aware and are very considerate to others. I also know a lot of 2 high earner parents families where kids are very well behaved and appreciative of what their parents have provided for them. On the other hand, a bit of mud slinging here, I find some resentful stay home moms who are just too sick of having to deal with their kids day in and day out (no money to hire a babysitter), and pretty much just gave up. So, I don’t think it is an issue of stay home parent vs two earner parents household.</p>
<p>garland - I agree, completely. Some families (particularly middle class) are fine with both parents working, but others would be better off, both economically, and socially, if one parent stayed home. No different than the issues with single children - there can be real problems, but they can be avoided by parents who are aware. I have one friend who was once offended when I mentioned that her daughter did not fit the profile of a “typical only child,” until I pointed out that I was complimenting her and her husband for the way they raised their daughter. dual-income families don’t have to be like that, but many are.</p>
<p>EPTR - you would just love what our school system did. They reconfigured our middle school scheduling and teams so that all students would have music - divided among band, chorus and general music. There’ only so much space in the general music classes, so guess where the extra kids land - in Chorus, standing next to the kids who actually care about Chorus. Even the band has kids who wouldn’t otherwise choose to be there. The result was the first evening concert packed with parents of there snowflakes. Thankfully the kids are forced to wait in the cafeteria when not performing, so if the parents leave, the have to come back to get them. But them staying isn’t so great either. They whistle, cat call, yell out their kid’s name… it was so bad, an insert was placed in the program for the HS student who performed the following week - even though they all take band and chorus as electives - instructing the parents on how to behave at a concert!</p>
<p>I can only imagine what this is going to do to these programs the next few years… the kids who are genuinely interested will either finally get away from the others, or will give up and decimate our HS music program.</p>
<p>As for the inappropriate clothing - there’s a reason I like uniforms at my youngest D’s school. Might not address the Nutella issue, but certainly would address the bathing suit. Then again our middle school had a serious issue with inappropriate clothing last year, lots of kids in ISS, and I don’t think it’s an issue of them changing once they get to school, because if they did, they would have an appropriate set of clothes to change back into.</p>
<p>Child rearing advice:
If everyone in the grocery store, restaurant, mall, knows your child’s name because you’ve said it umpteen times, it’s time to go home!</p>
<p>I really haven’t seen much of the behavior being described here. Even at the restaurant we love for the adult only section, kids don’t seem to be misbehaving, they are just very loud. I like the sound of happy children, but when we go out to eat, we prefer a quiet environment, so this restaurant’s solution was very welcome in our point of view.</p>
<p>The nutella and bathing suit situation would happen at my house only when hell froze over. Geez.</p>
<p>When my kids were younger and acting up in a restaurant, I would tell them (usually my D) “We need to go to the bathroom”. At which point my D would say, “no mommy, I’ll do better”. Off we’d go to the bathroom where I would ‘talk’ to her about her horrible behavior and once we got back to the table if she was unruly again, we would leave. That happened one time. She and I sat in the car while waiting for the rest of the family to finish dinner. Then we went home and she went to bed- no dinner, no TV, nothing. I think it was 6 pm. She wasn’t happy, but she didn’t do that again when we went out.</p>
<p>We would always have something for the kids to do- a book, or crayons, or a special toy that would keep them occupied.</p>
<p>We always told the kids that if you can’t behave in public, then you wouldn’t be allowed to go out into the public. Maybe that explains why they are both homebody’s now…we never went out much when they were younger. ;)</p>
<p>I always thought of diners and places like Chili’s as a training ground for good behavior even if they were lower key. We only had to pick up and leave a restaurant once or twice before DD got the message…even as a three year old. If she hadn’t been trainable we would have stayed home or gotten a sitter until she was able to contain herself for a reasonable period of time. </p>
<p>I haven’t ever spoken to another parent about their little “snowflake” but I am pretty intolerant of outrageous behavior. We visited family in Belgium and France often when D was little and it was very rare to see the kind of acting out from small children that we see here almost daily. </p>
<p>I DO feel sorry for parents travelling on a plane with children that are so small that they can’t yet settle themselves down. What do you do with a rambunctious two year old or a baby that won’t stop crying? Though I am the one asking for a scotch, putting in earplugs and blanching as your kid starts to scream, I feel for you.</p>
<p>have seen this in my own sibling’s family. they were visiting at my home for a nice lunch, 8 yr old twin nephews are asked by my Mom, their Grandma, to please wash up before we sit down to eat. You would have thought this kid was attacked, he proceeded to have a huge hissy fit disrupting the entire household, yelling at Grandma, deeply insulted he was told what to do. My own kids were shocked at his behavior, and the twins’ Dad, my sib, said NOTHING. After 10 minutes of us all sitting there, (me waiting for his Dad to take action to calm and discipline him, I decided, it’s my home and we will abide by MY house rules. I calmly told nephew that “in our house we don’t talk like that to anyone, but especially to Grandma, and that he needed to stop screaming.” He did quiet down but his Dad thought I was out of line. WHAT?! He then joined us for lunch which was terribly awkward and distressing. I believe in that one instance I provided more true parenting than he had received in years.</p>
<p>This reminds me of one time when my son and I were at Target. He didn’t want to sit in the cart, he wanted to walk with me and help push the cart. I was looking for some clothes for H, turned my back for 30 seconds and S was gone! I called out for him, frantically searching everywhere. About 2 minutes later (felt like hours) he pops out from the middle of the rack and yells “Boo”. He thought it was funny. Needless to say, I didn’t. I found an empty wall and put him in timeout for 3 minutes- just stare at the wall and think about how frightened mommy was… Then he was placed in the cart. He was very quiet from that point on.</p>
<p>30 minutes later we’re in line and this woman with her 4 y.o. child who kept pestering her for stuff “I want, I want” and her weak “no”. Finally she points to my son and says “why can’t you act like that little boy, see how quiet and well behaved he’s being.” I went off on her, told her in no uncertain terms that if she would act like a real mom and say “NO” like she means it and maybe use some form of punishment- timeout, spanking; I don’t care, just something and stop using my child as an example and BE A PARENT.</p>
<p>I guess I scared her so much she went to another lane that was twice as long.</p>
<p>People like that annoy the @#$% out of me. Parents can’t be their kids best friends when the kids are not over 18. It’s not possible.</p>
<p>Look, I’m the kid who was in day care all the time and had parents who were friends more than parents. They did it because it worked, and it worked very well, for me and my personality. I’ve never been in trouble. I sat quietly through a flight from here to England when I was two. While I did scream between every bite as an infant (my parents didn’t take me to dinner more than once before I was two), by the time I was a toddler, I could sit and eat just like an adult. I also did the dine-and-dash at Chuck E Cheese’s and McDonalds but I knew the difference between that and a real restaurant. </p>
<p>I just hate stereotypes and generalizations. Parent how it works best with YOUR kid. For some, the buddy parent thing works. Yes, obviously this doesn’t work for everyone and we see bad kids. However, I work at a shelter and I see parents that are extremely authoritarian and do nothing but scream at their children. It doesn’t work either.</p>
<p>Good and bad mannered people come from a wide variety of educational backgrounds. Good mannered dinner guests or hosts aren’t limited solely to those from top 10-15 schools. </p>
<p>I had to leave one dinner hosted by an older elite u grad with a friend once after he started launching into a completely random unprovoked long political diatribe directed at the friend he assumed held differing political views. </p>
<p>IMO…no one…including the dinner host should ever start political discussions with acquaintances…especially if it was for the seeming purpose of provoking a serious fight as it was in that instance. </p>
<p>Felt bad for my friend and seriously embarrassed for his alma mater for the complete absence of logical coherence to his angry ramblings. :(</p>
<p>Personally, I enjoy political discussions…so long as they are among those I know well and are based in some form of logical rational discourse expected of anything resembling an intellectual discussion.</p>