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<p>Romani, I was talking about … me talking to an older parent. And, yes, I am afraid that I forgot that many parents might be my own age. I should have thought about my own cousins who are parents. How quickly we forget. :)</p>
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<p>While I understand and agree with your point with most kids, there are groups of kids…especially boys/men who feel catering to others to that extent feels too much like “bootlicking” and subscribe to Groucho Marx’s “I refuse to join any clubs that would have me” school of thought. </p>
<p>For such folks, they actually derive joy from being regarded with disdain and disliked as it’s a sign they’re doing something right while marching to the beat of their own drum. In fact, this was one essential part of the punk rock movement of the '70s before they declined through becoming too elitist and conformist in their own ways.</p>
<p>Y’all ought to Google “consensual parenting” or “non-coercive parenting”. It will blow your mind.</p>
<p>“Conflicting wants or needs are discussed and mutually agreeable solutions are created or negotiated which meet the underlying needs of all parties (including children).”</p>
<p>I had a parent tell me that if mother has an appointment and goes to put her child into his car seat but the child doesn’t want to get buckled into his car seat, indeed, the child doesn’t want to go anywhere, the mother and child will discuss the situation to find a mutually agreeable solution.</p>
<p>She could never explain to me what would happen if there isn’t a “mutually” agreeable solution. The gist of it was that mother might end up canceling her appointment if Snowy was firmly opposed to getting in the car.</p>
<p>There is an entire philosophy of never, ever, ever setting limits.</p>
<p>See I think that sometimes we reward bad behavior in our society. That he who is loudest and makes the most noise gets ahead. What is the meaning of precocious? How is it defined? </p>
<p>I expected my kids to behave and they did. Some of it was temperament and some of it was how I parented. But I did notice that when they picked kids for the “gifted” program they were the more lively children. The quiet girl who did her work and got A’s did not need as much enrichment as the child who pestered the teacher and didn’t want to stay in their chair. Kids went to a upper middle class school where the parents were highly educated and the competition for the pull out gifted program was fierce. I know this is not a popular idea and I may be criticized for my opinion. </p>
<p>I also think parents are tired and overextended. They now have money to take their kids out to eat and they are guilty. They are guilty if they are working and don’t want for the kids to spend more time with babysitters. If they stay home they feel guilty that they should spend every waking moment with their children enriching their environment. So we take our kids to a restaurant and we are worn out. And we want to sit and have that glass of wine. And we want our children to like us. Because when we tell them no they get upset. And who wants that?</p>
<p>Besides we want our children to have a healthy self esteem. How do you do that when you yell at them, poor darlings.</p>
<p>Kids eventually learn that there are limits and that there are ways that polite society wants you to act. Likewise, they will also learn that a whole variety of adults have expectations for them. They can learn those lessons as young children, or more painfully as they age. </p>
<p>I do not see a problem with a strident “ENOUGH” directed at the child, nor the death glare. If you start engaging more than that, you risk having the parents defend their little dear against the ogre one table over.</p>
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My dad’s parenting philosophy is “The inmates do not run the asylum.”</p>
<p>Ever notice how a 12 month old will watch you as you go about your business at home? Trust me, they are only looking for signs of weakness and will use this against you when they are two.
Kind of like the Raptors in Jurassic Park checking the electric fences. They remember. ;)</p>
<p>We recently had 2 such occasions: </p>
<p>1) in a doctor’s waiting room (the child wasn’t a patient). The parent came in with the loud whiny child, checked-in, and SAT DOWN with the yelling child. She seemed clueless that she should have taken him into the hallway until he calmed down. After many, many minutes of the kids screaming, the mom called the dad on his cell phone and the dad talked to the child. From the child’s responses on the phone, didn’t sound like the dad was mean or anything, but whatever he said made the kid be quiet. I think that in that household, mom is the marshmallow and dad means business (but not in a mean way). </p>
<p>2) at a casual sit-down restaurant. Parents came in with 2YO girl twins. One twin was very good, the other was horrible…loud, crying, etc. The parents didn’t make any effort to take the child outside for a few minutes.</p>
<p>*“Conflicting wants or needs are discussed and mutually agreeable solutions are created or negotiated which meet the underlying needs of all parties (including children).”</p>
<p>I had a parent tell me that if mother has an appointment and goes to put her child into his car seat but the child doesn’t want to get buckled into his car seat, indeed, the child doesn’t want to go anywhere, the mother and child will discuss the situation to find a mutually agreeable solution.</p>
<p>She could never explain to me what would happen if there isn’t a “mutually” agreeable solution. The gist of it was that mother might end up canceling her appointment if Snowy was firmly opposed to getting in the car.*</p>
<p>Ha! I’m guilty of forcing a child into his car seat (forcing his contorting body into the seat), fastening the straps, and going where I needed to go. I didn’t use pain, but I did use my strength over his.</p>
<p>^^ Haha, hopefully it was YOUR child, and not a case of mistaken identity. :)</p>
<p>I run into this at some restaurants… Usually the friendlies type or diners.</p>
<p>I forget where I ate one time where there was a family with parents that looked in their thirties, with four kids… Two looked like twins about four, one looked about two and one was a baby. Naturally, they put the twins and the two year old on one side of the table and they both sat on the other side with the baby. I’m sorry but in that situation where you have four little kids and two parents you sit two kids on each side and you plop one adult between each of them so you can control them and help them with their food. They didn’t even put the two year old in a high chair type seat. The three kids kept getting up, crawling under three table, spinning in circles, singing, yelling etc. the parents kept saying sit down but did nothing to make this happen or make any attempt to change seats around.</p>
<p>If I eat out at a nicer place, they’re usually aren’t too many kids there.</p>
<p>I went out with my best friends family once and their four year old son was acting up. Dad promptly took him outside and didn’t let him return till he promised to be good. Needless to say, neither of them returned. We got both of their food to go and their son ate at home after apologizing to everyone of us for his behavior.</p>
<p>I see this at grocery stores all the time. </p>
<p>Sent from my DROID BIONIC using CC</p>
<p>I was once in a line with a family of two adults and three kids. Literally we were in line for several hours in a hot, stuffy, crowded room. I gave the parents credit for keeping their kids under decent control under very tiring circumstances. I think I would have just remained in line so or with one kid while the other adult took two or three kids and cell phone to reappear when near front of the line. </p>
<p>At restaurants and while in public, have always made it a priority that our kids not disturb others. Can see how that is hard when one has no sitters and/or support. In such circumstances, we’d just opt for takeout, so as not to inflict our kids on others if we didn’t feel they could behave. </p>
<p>Have been irked with sibs who arrived at family gatherings and expected everyone to put up with but NOT raise their voice to their misbehaving hooligans. Fortunately they’ve all grown up and it’s ok now.</p>
<p>Oh my. I was just talking with my mom about this today. Why don’t parents say NO to their kids today. I have endured screaming at the table while the parents just say “oh no you have to be quiet” and the kid keeps screaming. I have seen parent order three meals and the child eats none. I have seen the kids run around. They have asked me to play with my smart phone, to which I said NO and the parent immediately gave them their phone. Worst yet, since the child will not sit in a booster, they give him a regular seat even if that means someone has to wait until the waiter brings another chair for the adult to sit in. Usually not the parents. When my kids were small if they would not sit in the booster, they would sit on my lap. People wonder why we don’t join them often.</p>
<p>I can’t tell you how cathartic this thread has been for me. Having a sil who prescribes to the never say no, everything is up for negotiating is so shocking I feel like I’m in outer space with them. She described her philosophy once, that really rendered me speechless. She believed negotiating with a 3 yo mind you, really worked wonders. Until of course they were on our boat and she wanted to ski and her son had a fit and she promised him candy if he would let her and he still said no, so she didn’t go ski. I told her it sounded like she was training him to be a lawyer one day. </p>
<p>And let’s talk about the eating negotiations. If you eat your meat, you can have dessert - ice cream and cookies. Okay, not 5, but 3, 3 bites and you can have chocolate sauce on your ice cream and cookies… okay at least take a bite, if you don’t take a bite you can’t have any dessert! Okay, you can have dessert THIS time, but only because it’s a special occasion. Sounded to me like she really taught him some good negotiating tactics - and from the sounds of it I’d rather hire him than her to represent me in a negotiation.</p>
<p>I know someone who told me she never said “no” to her child. I asked what she did when he was about to do something dangerous or say, touch something he REALLY wasn’t supposed to-like rip a magazine up in a store. She said she used the wards “Ta Ta” to mean “stop.” I asked if that didn’t mean the same thing-NO, but she said absolutely not, “no” is too negative.</p>
<p>I always thought Ta Ta’s were boobs.</p>
<p>eyemamom, Actually, that parent is raising her kiddo to be a spoiled brat that will likely be very unpleasant to be around and unhappy when the rest of the world won’t cave and give kiddo whatever kiddo desires. Would NOT want to be around when that kiddo learns the world is NOT his oyster.</p>
<p>This is getting so funny!!! Ta ta!!! OMG. Are you kidding me?</p>
<p>I have a relative who gives into everything her child wants including staying home from school whenever he felt like it. Untiil the truant officer showed up and told her that school was non-negotiable.</p>
<p>@eyemamom,</p>
<p>Reminds me of some of my kids’ friends who were picky eaters. Their mom’s would tell me in advance of a sleepover at our house that their kids are picky eaters, then list the things their kids are willing to eat (none of these kids had allergies). </p>
<p>Whenever these kids would come for sleepovers and refused to eat what was on our family’s dinner table, I let them go hungry. One kid refused spaghetti w tomato sauce, insisting he would only eat it w butter. Tough luck, kid…</p>
<p>Wonder what kind of job they could get where they just show up when they feel like it? </p>
<p>The only thing we’d let kids eat if they weren’t interested in what was served was peanut butter sandwich they made themselves (in our household). They could also help themselves to whatever else was being served in normal portion sizes, so sometimes they’d just eat rice and maybe a banana. No one made a fuss and they didn’t dare whine that they were hungry later because they’d get absolutely no sympathy from us.</p>
<p>EPTR - around here, parents can be sent to jail for letting their kids skip school. And most schools have attendance policies where missing too many classes results in no credit - even if they have a 100% average in the class. Unfortunately what it likely to happen as these kids grow up is they will be just like their own parents, for two reasons. First, it is the example that was set for them, but also because they will firmly believe that it’s all about their own wants and needs - let their kids be free spirits, after all it didn’t harm them, and it’s too much work to have to worry about discipline.</p>