Rungs

Parents Forum
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<p>I remember applying to 6 schools that my GC told me had good engineering and were less than 4 hrs from home. No stressing, how simple and easy it was back then.</p>

<p>Not till years later did I learn thanks to USNews that my school was in the second half of the top tier. I never really wanted to know. </p>

<p>Besides even Princeton stressing the rankings, I know my S’s univ website has the all the rankings you’d want to know for each various highly ranked department or major, proudly displayed in case you were wondering.</p>

82

<p>“The kids I know around here that got accepted to Harvard, Duke, Davidson, Dartmouth, Stanford, Yale - yeah, I would describe them as the ‘better students’, but I don’t mean it quite the way you guys are just reading it. Sorry.”</p>

<p>I understand you Cangel, but I would read it both ways - both “morally” (or whatever word you want to use) and “intellectually.” Even intellectually, the argument stands. Some kids get accepted at such schools, but choose not to go - they are elsewhere, so we can’t say the students at those schools aren’t just as good as the HYPMS ones. Others don’t get accepted because the schools can’t take everyone - yet they are just as smart. My Ivy could fill its class two or three times (or more) with applicants that would all do equally well. Others are smart, and get accepted, but they are just smart at meeting top requirements - they have no real insight or creativity. In my college teaching career I have seen MANY students like that.</p>

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<p>“processed - You and I are in total agreement as far as I can see. And I don’t want to overplay the effect this might or might not be having on our kids. I’d love to see it disappear, but don’t think it will. Hope idler is correct that any ill effects are not lasting; don’t know if s/he is.”</p>

<p>I guess that’s the luxury I enjoy here in South Texas. Ivies aren’t a big deal even with the students who are in step with that pool of applicants. Relatively few children apply to them. In fact nothing outside of Texas ranked in any shape or form is a big deal. I wanted to get my son a shirt with a map of PA and a little star where his school is located. He got tired of explaining. </p>

<p>Most feel that UT or A & M is the pinnacle of success. That is where their parents and grandparents went, etc…</p>

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<p>texastaximom - Very few kids from our high school in PA go to private colleges or far away ones. When my son was graduating high school and I was telling the mother of one of his classmates that I was glad he chose Stanford, but a little concerned about the distance from home, she replied “Why are you so worried - ‘Stanford, Connecticut’ isn’t THAT far away !!” Maybe I should have bought him a shirt with a map of CALIFORNIA on it!</p>

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<p>jmmom,</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Point also well taken. This will probably be my son in the future. I guess that I have to believe that it will leave him a bit wiser, though a bit more cynical (realistic?) about what certain conditions can afford you. No matter what we as parents say, reality does tend to hit our offspring in the face eventually. Remember what we all told our kids about the only beauty that counts is inner beauty? How many of our college-bound kids still believe that after their exposure to media after all these years? </p>

<p>~berurah</p>

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<p>dstark - you are so right. I’m packing my bags right now for a return to Ca. Could you have a nice place ready for me at the same price I’m selling my small town NE home?</p>

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<p>Hey! jmmom! You are the real estate person. :)</p>

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<p>oh… yeah… right, dstark. Well, how about this? I’ll buy your house for what I sell mine here for (won’t even charge you a commission).</p>

89

<p>The students at HYPSMC aren’t better people than others. They may not be more successful in life than people who attend other schools. But like it or not, they are, in the aggregate, better students–not people, students.
Take a look at the list of the top 40 Intel winners. Most years, at least 35 of the 40 end up at HYPSMC. Take a look at the USAMO kids–same thing. Take a look at the US Presidential Scholars, same thing. </p>

<p>In fact, according to Greene’s book, originally called “The Select” and then retitled something like “Inside the Top Colleges,” the percentage of the kids who score at the commended level or higher on the PSAT that ends up at the top 20 or so colleges is much, much higher than it was a generation or so ago. So, not only was it easier to get into HYPSMC back then, but more of the smartest, most accomplished kids in the US WANT to go to HYPSMC now than back then. </p>

<p>One of the things that really makes these schools select is the peer group. I’m not claiming that you can’t find one kid at North Dakota State who isn’t as smart as most of the kids at Harvard. That’s untrue. It may even be true that the smartest student at North Dakota State is smarter than anyone at Harvard. It’s certainly true that there are some not very smart kids at Harvard, too. But in the aggregate, the kids at HYPSMC are smarter and more accomplished than the kids at North Dakota State. </p>

<p>If you have a kid who is a scientist at the Intel level, he or she is going to find more people who share his/her interests and can understand what he or she is studying at HYPSMC than at North Dakota State. If you have a kid who scored an 11 on the AIME in 9th grade, he or she is going to find more kids who can challenge them at HYPSMC. And because there are more kids like that at the top schools, faculty want to teach at them.</p>

<p>It may be politically incorrect to say there’s a difference in the quality of the student bodies of various colleges, but there is. Again, that doesn’t mean that the kids at one school are better people than the people at another. It doesn’t mean that there may not be someone just as smart at any college as anyone you can find at a top college. But yes, if you were to be blind-folded and lead into a class discussion on a topic you know about at a range of top schools, you could probably come pretty darn close to ranking them in terms of their selectivity based on those discussions.</p>

<p>And the opportunities these schools offer are mind-boggling. Take a look at the calendars at some of the top schools. See how many famous or accomplished people stop by and meet with students. See how many extracurricular organizations there are and check out what they do and the opportunities they offer. </p>

<p>Now you can say that for a particular kid, it may be better to be a bigger fish in a smaller pond. You can say you don’t think the difference in cost is worth it for your family. You can say that many of the kids and parents who are obsessed with these schools are just fixated on prestige. But, there is a reason why year after year, the top academic reputation scores go to certain colleges and those same colleges are among the most selective.</p>

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<p>Voronwe, I don’t doubt that a bit, I agree. There is nothing superior about morally or intellectually about the students going to Ivies. And in particular what you were saying - kids accepted who go elsewhere are as smart, as are the many rejected kids who would make up that “class just as accomplished as the one that got in”. But, for us out here in the hinterlands, what Oldman said is true, by and large, the kids that are accepted to the most elite schools (including Northwestern, perhaps Oldman ;)), are by and large a little different than their peers, that thing that we would call the “better students” - a little higher in the class as a group, a little more interested in learning, and a LOT more interested in other parts of the country. Heck, they have some common characteristics that give them the chutzpah to try in the first place, plus parents that don’t faint or snort at the idea that there might be something to learn “up North”.</p>

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<p>“Take a look at the list of the top 40 Intel winners. Most years, at least 35 of the 40 end up at HYPSMC. Take a look at the USAMO kids–same thing. Take a look at the US Presidential Scholars, same thing.”</p>

<p>There’s no question in my mind that there are more geniuses at Harvard, etc. than anywhere else. That’s hardly a way to judge an institution. They would have been geniuses wherever they would have gone.</p>

<p>Try something that more closely mirrors the quality of the student bodies, a larger portion of the student bodies, while they are there. Take a look at recent Fulbright scholars. (Per capita, Wellesley and Smith - by far - it isn’t even close.) Try Ph.D’s per capita, and it doesn’t matter whether it is the hard sciences or history or English – and you’ll find the Ivies almost never break the top 10. You’ll find Reed, and Swarthmore, and Harvey Mudd, and Pomona, and Bryn Mawr, but you won’t find the top Ivies in virtually any category. Try Ed.d’s and you’'ll find the grads of the women’s colleges.</p>

<p>Try medical school. Now, clearly, medical school is less desirable than it used to be (and I would be the last to argue that the students at HYP are less adept than they were a three decades ago - I think the opposite.) But the percentage of Yale grads going on directly to med school has dropped by almost two-thirds in the past 25 years, and law school almost as much. I’m not suggesting they couldn’t go; only that they didn’t. Those places are being filled…by graduates of other schools, like Hope and Grinnell and Kalamazoo and St. Olaf’s.</p>

<p>There is a difference in the student bodies. But over time, the differences in student bodies among the top 50 or 75 schools has narrowed considerably. </p>

<p>North Dakota State clearly hasn’t caught up.</p>

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<p>Just a few stray points:</p>

<p>1) A few years ago - probably at least 6, since I read it when my older D was in college search mode - there was an article in the NYT Mag about admissions at an ivy - Harvard, I think. The person interviewed noted that they could fill the class, and then go back through the applicants and fill another class, and both would do just as well. So while the caliber of an entire ivy class may be “better” than that at state u, that does not mean that the kid who got in is necessariy better than the kid who got waitlisted or rejected. </p>

<p>2) I’ve said this on CC before, but this thread may merit a repeat: My H was rejected by an ivy twice before he was finally accepted - he didn’t get in when he applied in HS, and was also rejected for grad school. But they were quite happy to hire him as an assistant professor!</p>

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<p>wish<em>it</em>was_april,</p>

<p>I find the anecdote about your husband both interesting and inspiring…thanks for repeating it for those of us who missed it the first time! ~berurah</p>

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<p>jmmom, no chance. Sorry. Not in this lifetime.</p>

95

<p>I usually post on the law board. I know that many law schools do list the undergraduate institutions represented in their student bodies. So, I decided to check out the accuracy of your statement that:</p>

<p>"…law school almost as much. I’m not suggesting they couldn’t go; only that they didn’t. Those places are being filled…by graduates of other schools, like Hope and Grinnell and Kalamazoo and St. Olaf’s. "</p>

<p>The three top law schools are generally considered to be Yale, Harvard and Stanford. The most recent data I could find on line for Yale was for the academic year 2002-03. There were two students enrolled in the JD program (all three years combined) from St. Olaf’s. There were none from Hope, Grinnell, or Kalamazoo…NONE. </p>

<p>Harvard has current data on line. In all three years, there is one student from Kalamazoo and none from Hope, Grinnell, or St. Olaf’s. </p>

<p>Stanford just lists the undergraduate institutions listed, without giving the number of students. Grinnell is listed. There are no current Stanford Law students who graduated from Hope, Kalamazoo or St. Olaf’s.</p>

<p>So, out of the approximately 2700 students enrolled in the nation’s top 3 law schools, none went to Hope, 2 went to St. Olaf’s, 1 went to Kalamazoo, and at least one, possibly more, Grinnell grads attend Stanford Law,but there are none at Harvard or Yale.</p>

<p>Yale Law had 86 Yale College grads; Harvard had 109, and Stanford had some, though I can’t tell how many. </p>

<p>Williams, one of the AWS group, had 15 at Yale Law and 16 at Harvard Law and was also on the Stanford list.</p>

<p>I agree that there are students who didn’t get into HYPSMC who are better students than some of those who did. That still doesn’t change the fact that in the AGGREGATE, there are differences in the quality of the student bodies among the top 50 and 75 schools.</p>

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<p>The “top” law schools merely reflects both the expectation of and the actual dollars to pay for them. Come up with the RATE of students at any of these law schools who received financial aid as undergraduates from these institutions, then compare them with the RATES of similar students from other institutions, and we can have an interesting conversation. Interesting, though the data would be skewed (what institutions could possibly be more supportive of the social hierarchy than HYS law schools!)</p>

<p>Meanwhile, at the very same time, the rate at which Yale undergraduates go on to law schools - ALL law schools – has (according to Yale’s own statitistics) dropped 60% in the last 25 years. Again, I would not argue that they couldn’t go (I expect the students are in fact as good or better than they were 25 years ago); only that they didn’t. And those places were taken by students from other institutions.</p>

<p>All your number have shown me thus far are places in the social hierarchy. (which is why you won’t even look at Ph.D. productivity, because it is one place that social hierarchy is much less likely to count.)</p>

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<p>I think that sampling is very flawed. You can’t look at what you call the “top three law schools”. I am also a lawyer, and know that many students choose to go to law school in the area where they expect to practice. An aspiring Texas lawyer would be well-served by choosing UT. There are so many excellent law schools, and their classes come from all sorts of undergraduate institutions. When I was at U of Chicago law, I fit right in with my Big Ten degree.</p>

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<p>A year at UW Law School for a resident (which is the preferred place if you want to practice law in Washington), costs $28k. A year at Brigham Young Law (which will give you GREAT connections out here, will set you back roughly $14k. A year at Harvard Law is close to $50k. Take a scholarship student from Yale with $18k in college loans, with a family back home that may still need help, and see how attractive Harvard Law is. </p>

<p>Now, don’t get me wrong: you will find many lower-income students who attended HYP-AWS who, because we have hobknobbed with privileged students, want those privileges for ourselves, and in many instances, will cobble together the funds to make it possible. (I did, and went to Oxford - not so much for Oxford, but so I could go abroad! for which I would have had no money otherwise.) And so I expect, given both student capability and a rise in expectations, HYP will still be overrepresented among lower income students at HYS law schools. But not by very much. And less as time goes on. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, in Ph.D. productivity in the biological and chemical sciences, you’ll find Reed, Swarthmore, Kalamazzo, Earlham, Grinnell, College of Wooster, Harvey Mudd, Texas Lutheran, Bowdoin. NOT a single Ivy. On the total lists, you’ll find Yale (especially in English) and, in two categories, in the lower part of the 10, Princeton. Harvard does not grace the lists in any subject even once. And for women, you’ll find Bryn Mawr consistently at or near the top of the lists. None of the other Ivies appear on any of the lists EVEN ONCE.</p>

<p>It’s only one measure among many, of course, and even if being given fellowships, poorer students are still less likely to pursue Ph.D.'s if they have extended family obligations back home, or large college loans to pay off. But it is a much better measure of student achievement independent of the socio-economic hierarchy.</p>

<p>Please - don’t misunderstand me. I think the students at HYPS, and the other Ivies, are terrific. But the gap is small, and getting smaller every year. And by the end of four years, for students from the same socio-economic background, I would be hardpressed to find any gap at all.</p>

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<p>mini - re your point on % who go on to PhD, EdD, MD etc. Why do you think that % is not so high from the Ivies?</p>

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<p>

This is part of what puzzles me. Certainly, there are dramatic differences in student bodies between HYPSM/AWS and “generic big state U.” But I’m presuming that mini is correct re student bodies above, and I’m observing that the LESSER FIVE and their cohorts in the top 50-75 (or 100 ) schools also have vibrant campuses, rich EC environments … </p>

<p>Why hasn’t the top “rung” grown larger? </p>

<p>I think that is a big part of the root of my question as OP. In particular, for us thoughtful, earnest, informed (or wannabe such) on cc, why hasn’t the top rung grown to 50-100 schools among us?</p>