<p>Many posts back when I asked nychomie how he had all this time to be on an adult online message forum as my kids never had this kind of free time and still don’t, he claimed that students at Princeton (IF he even goes there) are better at time management. It is such a laughable attitude! My kids went to demanding colleges and grad schools and they did not have this kind of time and are amazing at time management. The attitude is the issue here, not where one goes to school. After all, some of us here who find the attitude appalling, actually have kids who went to either prep/boarding schools or elite colleges ourselves! I’d die if my kids thought or spoke the way I’m reading here. They don’t though.</p>
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<p>To actually put “elite” in the name is quite gauche, so no, this wouldn’t be elitist. At the very least, it seems a little nouveau riche. You would be in the category of wanna-be elitist.</p>
<p>Toblerone is a little more subtle, displaying the sophistication of the True Elite. The shapes of the chocolates were meant to look like the Swiss alps, so you can remind the less refined of your expensive European vacations without actually saying anything.</p>
<p>I met a high school senior in my region yesterday who attends a very small rural public school. Her family is well off. In fact, she grew up in another state and went to private school K-9. The family had a second home in my state for a vacation home. They liked it so much, they moved here but kept their other home and the father has a very successful business in the other state and commutes to our state on weekends (he owns three private jets). Just think, they gave up private school and moved the kids to rural Vermont to attend rural public school. Imagine that. The kid had NO attitude and never flaunted her wealth but I realized it through context of some of her experiences. Had NO elitist attitude. Went to an ordinary public school even smaller than my kids’ rural public school. She is an applicant to elite colleges. Not everyone who is rich chooses private high school. This kid loved her public high school.</p>
<p>Kei-o-lei:
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<p>There are multiple ways to deduce whether or not school are the cause/effect.
- If being wealthy is the cause then the school from “pacheight” 1.7 million $ neighborhood would have the same % acceptances.
- If being a particular race is the cause as indicated by “pacheight” then a school from 90% of that ethinicity would have the same % acceptances.</p>
<p>Since both 1 and 2 are not true then we should consider School is the cause and not an effect. You can prove this absolutely only iff
A - Every one who have matriculated from prep school would have done so if not gone to the school.
or
B - Every one who have not gone to prep school have matriculated to the top schools.</p>
<p>Since there is no way to prove the “A” hypothesis, but it is easily seen that “B” is not true, then the school can only be considered a cause in matriculating to the top schools and not an effect.</p>
<p>My brother and I attended boarding prep schools that were feeders for HYP. And the schools were quite successful in that aspect. Both my brother and I were accepted by HYP. </p>
<p>The academic rigor was outstanding and far greater than anything my children experienced in their excellent public school. The opportunites for sports, theatre, music, club and volunteer activities were much less in our prep schools relative to my kids’high school and I think that is driven by the difference in numbers. Our high school has over 2000 students and my school had just over 200 students.</p>
<p>My brother and I frequently discussed the life we would have had if we had been educated in our hometown. Our lives would have been significantly less regimented. We had very little freedom in the prep environment. We were obligated to attend every meal at a certain time, we had mandatory study hall and chapel, and ,of course, the dreaded lights out. We also had very little free time; my course load required 6-7 hours of outside work every day all week. In addition, we had community work obligations every week and daily room inspection and required P.E. And, of course, you had to work off demerits as you accumulated them and I accumulated plenty! (room too messy, uniform is wrinkled, late to chapel) So I had little time to pursue extracurriculars. Before I attended my prep school, I was a violinist and I loved it. Without my mom nagging me, I would practice 2 to 3 hours a day because I was crazy about the violin. I had to give it up in prep school because there was simply not enough time in my schedule. (a fact which pains me to this day)</p>
<p>So the prep schools did their job. We got in. But that result came at a price. Every student I knew at my school was intensely homesick. Most of us came from loving families and we missed our homes. My brother and I gave up 4 years of family dinners, watching TV with our Dad, goofing around with our dogs, playing cards with our Mom, hanging our neighborhood friends and relatives. After 4 years, we lost some of the closeness we had with our parents and we never regained that.</p>
<p>When my son was born, my father offered to pay for his prep school education. I said no thank you.</p>
<p>^^^ I don’t agree with #1 in post 304. You say that the public school in upscale neighborhood should have the same percentage of admits to elite colleges as the private prep. However, for one thing, the kids at the elite private prep were skimmed off the population at the public school. So, if the prep school kids who got into elite colleges went to their local high school, the percentage of students from the public high school heading to the elite colleges would be higher than it is now as there would be more top students in the school population as the prep school kids would be back mixed in with their community peers. </p>
<p>Further, another reason the percentage of elite college admits is not as high at the public school as at the prep school is because the prep school has a selected student body whereas the public school has high achieving students eligible for elite colleges, but ALSO has everyone else who attends. The private school automatically has a higher concentration of high achieving kids in the student body from the day they arrive on campus.</p>
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<p>Stats, my dear, you have yet to provide your GRE scores OR your taste in mustard. (Hint: Grey Poupon is to mustard as Governor Dummer is to prep schools. But wait: didn’t the latter change its name?)</p>
<p>Benley, some of us are having a delightful time on this thread. Pish tosh.</p>
<p>BTW, I think that a distinction needs to be made between elitism and snobbery. The former may be based on admiration for actual excellence, the latter is meaningless. I think that the problem some have with nychomie is that they perceive him as a snob, not an elitist. Homie, I would readily grant you that an <em>elite</em> prep school such as Exeter THESE DAYS likely has a high concentration of intelligent students than all but magnet high schools. BUT I completely disagree about the comparative degree of maturity of the student bodies. I have family members and, over the years, many friends and acquaintances who attended the St Grottlesex schools as well as some on the Forbes list and other very well known preps. Among them were a person who was routinely tied to a chair and sexually tortured at Groton, several people who were expelled from Andover after being busted, and valedictorians at other prep schools who are among the least mature and most screwed up people I’ve ever known.</p>
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<p>The reason why I have made so many posts on this thread was to show that I will not succumb to bullying while letting myths about these elite prep schools circulate without challenge.</p>
<p>I know you think I lack emotional intelligence, but that’s because I’ve managed to maintain my composure so well despite these wild accusations. I know others will be much more impatient and will have flipped out already, but it’s in my nature to respond in a level-headed manner. You might think this is a case of missing social cues, but to the contrary, it’s one illustration of how my elite prep school education has prepared me to engage in civil debate at all levels.</p>
<p>Grxcc3,
I concede I could see why you see me as elitist. I created that other infamous thread about how intelligent-looking, poised, good-looking, and socially graceful individuals typically do not advertise their HYP affiliation to the same extent as those not blessed with those traits. In addition to that, I have continually argued that elite prep schools by themselves can enhance the rate of one’s intellectual and personal growth to a degree that a regular HS (meaning, the average HS in America, not the average HS in a wealthy suburb) cannot. I have also made statements saying elite prep school students are, on average, more mature, poised, and intelligent than students from the latter. Finally, I said that leaders at the well-known prep schools garner instant respect at elite colleges (and that while their counterparts at regular high schools can gain the same level of respect, they might require more vetting). Those are pretty much all I said and thus, they have to be what’s leading you to believe I have an elitist attitude. There really is no other source. As you said yourself, my posts have been written in a civil manner. Thus, it would really help if you point out specific examples of where you believe I have this “ATTITUDE.” Otherwise, it just seems like an easy escape.</p>
<p>Also, just as many of you believe your opinions based on experience are true, so do I. To add to that, I have experiences in BOTH elite prep schools AND regular high schools (where I volunteer significantly), and I doubt many of you can say the same.</p>
<p>Posting on here doesn’t really take that much of my time. Maybe 30 minutes a day? How much time does it take you to write one post?</p>
<p>When I was an elected School Committee member where I live parents some parents compared our public school to the prep school in town and complaining that the prep school did a better job educating and complained that the public schools were inferior. My standard response was to ask them wtwo questions: how much was tuition and did they select students or was admissions open. The answers: $25k and nope, they got to accept some and turn down others. I pointed out our Town spent about $7500 per student and that the public schools had to educate e everyone, and asked them if they thought that had any effect on the schools.</p>
<p>OP’s logic in post #304 (and elsewhere) is unarguable, because it excludes large swaths of reality and pretends that differences (like whether schools have open or selective admissions ) don’t exist. Once reality is discarded, no bona fide exchange of ideas can take place.</p>
<p>Which is why post #304 is so valuable; it’s an intellectual dead end.</p>
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<p>Couple of flaws:
- You assume that the kids who have gone back to public school would have matriculated to top colleges. Which might not be true as that is the debatable point to begin with.
- The prep school matriculation rate is high in absolute number itself even though the size of the school is less than 1/3rd of the public schools. Which indicates that % wise even the eligible group of students at the public school who could have been admit to prep school produce less matriculation to top colleges.</p>
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Most of the public schools list the stats with respect to honors students also which can give you the strength of the student body that is similar to kids at prep high school.</p>
<p>Kei-o-lei: There have been studies that point to that the honors student at state universities have same future growth as students from top colleges. Still the competition to get into top colleges have not gone down.</p>
<p>The problem is similar:
I hope you also believe that the students going to top colleges are going to succeed in the first place no matter where they go and attend college and college is not going to play any role.</p>
<p>Re post #304 – your syllogism fails. I hope that your d. at MIT has better logical reasoning skills. </p>
<p>The “B” proposition needs to be restated as:</p>
<p>“Every one who qualified for admission to prep school but chose not to go, and who later chose to apply to “top” schools, was in fact admitted.”</p>
<p>Whether they matriculated is irrelevant, as the 2 most likely reasons that a person would choose not to attend a private prep school would be (a) financial, or (b) a preference a different type of educational environment (for example, more diverse, more flexible, less elitist, etc.). Those same concerns may later lead the student to choose a different college environment over the elite privates.</p>
<p>Obviously there is no easy way to check such data, as no one ever tracks what happens to students who apply to prep schools and then turn down their spots after being admitted. </p>
<p>On the other hand, it’s fairly easy to determine that the majority of students matriculating at top universities do not come from private prep schools. </p>
<p>Perhaps instead of dwelling on whether your kid’s former non-top 20 high school is getting the recognition you wish it had, you might shift your focus to how your daughter is currently doing at her top university in comparison with her public-school educated peers.</p>
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<p>I think we are not debating why the prep HS are able to prepare student better but whether or not prep HS is the cause for greater matriculation to top colleges.
How is the achieved is irrelevant to it but already have been shown that is not linked to wealth.</p>
<p>calmom:
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<p>I’m not sure how you will identify who can qualify for admission because as far as your own logic go “Schools are not cause but effect” so the things left that can influence the eligibility requirement will be wealth, ethnicity, or DNA.</p>
<p>Which one do you think will decide the eligibility.</p>
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<p>You are debating the topic that “Schools/Colleges are cause and not effect”, so according to you her abilities are not going to be affected by being at MIT, they are already there or not.</p>
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<p>I often find it ironic that some parents who are so obsessed with an elite education for their children are so challenged when it comes to applying elementary principals of logic, especially in the realm of cause & effect. </p>
<p>I also am somewhat amused at how little faith they have in their offspring’s own intellect – that is, they seem to assume that their child is merely a product of the educational environment rather than a contributor to it, and it doesn’t seem to occur to them that smart kids who attend public high schools often end up in the most academically challenging track at their school, or take advantage of other opportunities such as cross-enrollment with local public university campuses.</p>
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<p>Grcxx3 and Soozievt,</p>
<p>Be assured that I’m much more tactful in real life. There’s a reason why I’m posting these ideas on an anonymous forum-- to inspire debate when others in real life would not dare speak similarly on these issues for fear of coming across as non-politically correct. In my short time here, I have shown that (1) the way parents here have understood “fit” is misguided, (2) self-esteem is based on many factors, one of which is looks, and (3) elite prep schools can enhance intellectual and personal growth in ways that a regular HS can’t. </p>
<p>Obviously, in real life, I won’t challenge parents who say, to feel better about their child’s rejection, “Oh the Ivy X must have rejected him because he wasn’t a fit” when in reality they are talking about the kid not meeting that institution’s particular need, NOT whether or not it’s actually a personal fit for the kid (after all, they applied so it’s not so bad of a fit as to be out of consideration altogether). </p>
<p>I also realize it’s taboo to talk about looks in real life, DESPITE the fact that it plays such an important role in our sexual and social development. There are entire industries out there devoted to beautification-- fashion, cosmetics, health products, and I’m sure many of you have supported these industries in one way or another. Obviously, in real life, I won’t go “Oh I know you’re ugly but stop being so insecure about it because it makes you look even more unattractive.”</p>
<p>Finally, when talking about elite prep schools, I am much more tactful in my language in real life, even though sometimes that means being less honest about what I really think. Will I admit my belief that elite prep school students are more mature, poised, and intelligent on average? It depends on whom I’m talking to. Sometimes, I don’t even have to say it because it’s taken as a given. But for those who really have an issue, I might just concede that particular point for the sake of not rattling anybody. Let them believe that the average kid from the regular HS is just as intelligent, mature, and poised as the kid from the elite prep. So what? I don’t personally care unless they spread false myths about the prep school.</p>
<p>For those of you truly worried (haha, as if) I will come across as this huge snob and thus have a sorry life, need not worry. I’m an extremely self-aware person. That’s precisely why I choose to air my ideas on an anonymous internet forum. It’s less awkward and would give people more time to process what they just read, re-consider their beliefs, and perhaps develop a more informed perspective on the topics, no matter what they end up believing in the end.</p>
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<p>Certainly, I’ll second that it is not possible for everyone to understand principals of logic So it’s not worth my time.</p>
<p><<for those=“” of=“” you=“” truly=“” worried=“” (haha,=“” as=“” if)=“” i=“” will=“” come=“” across=“” this=“” huge=“” snob=“” and=“” thus=“” have=“” a=“” sorry=“” life,=“” need=“” not=“” worry.=“” i’m=“” an=“” extremely=“” self-aware=“” person…that’s=“” precisely=“” why=“” choose=“” to=“” air=“” my=“” ideas=“” on=“” anonymous=“” internet=“” forum.=“” it’s=“” less=“” awkward=“” would=“” give=“” people=“” more=“” time=“” process=“” what=“” they=“” just=“” read,=“” re-consider=“” their=“” beliefs,=“” perhaps=“” develop=“” informed=“” perspective=“” the=“” topics,=“” no=“” matter=“” end=“” up=“” believing=“” in=“” end.=“”>></for></p>
<p>Sorry. Still have major doubts. You DO come across as a huge snob. Now, who knows whether you’ll have a sorry life or not. I know lots of successful people who are major jerks. I just know that you will gain no respect from your peers or superiors with the attitude you are demonstrating here.</p>
<p>Just your condescending “haha, as if” comment demonstrates the attitude to which many of us have referred. I understand that you don’t see it, and - frankly - I give up trying to make you do so. It’s your problem, not mine. Best of luck to you.</p>
<p>POIH, </p>
<p>You did not respond to the second point I made…just curious…</p>
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<p>Not sure you can claim the prep school is the cause of their high percentage of acceptances when the prep school student body contains a higher concentration of top students before they take their first class at the prep school. </p>
<p>Also, I agree with calmom that your D is someone who was very likely to still get into MIT irregardless of attending her prep school. I’m sure her prep school was an amazing experience and worthwhile for that experience itself. But she sound like a bright girl who is a go getter and someone who would be an attractive candidate for admissions no matter where she went to HS. </p>
<p>I have daughters like that myself. Had we wanted to send them away for high school (we didn’t) or had the money for high school (we didn’t), they were very likely capable of getting into top prep schools. They didn’t attend prep school but are still who they are and so still were admitted to their top choice schools which are considered highly selective. I believe it is because the kind of student/person they are, like your D. They had a very different HS experience than your D but with a similar result (neither applied to MIT…though older D did end up there for grad school). Their paths were different. I don’t your D’s prep school is why she got into MIT. I think SHE is why she got in. And she would have gotten in from your public school too. It is nice you afforded her such a neat high school experience. But a person of her caliber is going to rise to the top no matter where she is. I do believe that. As you can see, a huge number of public school kids attend MIT along with your D and so landed at the same place anyway.</p>
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<p>What mechanistic reason would result in prep school students being more mature and poised than public schoolers? I am inclined to not believe it.</p>
<p>In a related vein, the simplest scenario I can imagine such that a prep school class president would be more predictive of leadership qualities than public school class leaders is the following: (1) The school selects for “mature” and “poised” people in admissions,
(2) the experience fosters leadership more as there are more chances to exhibit leadership in such things as community service projects
(3) Reasons one and two develops a community in which maturity and poise is valued, and therefore, the elected leaders are selected for those traits and thus are “super”-poised/mature.</p>
<p>I’m not sure I buy (1), unless you think that academic abilities at age 14 are predictive for maturity.
I guess (2) makes sense, but I’m not sure how I factor in the increased resume-padding and careerism that takes place at schools where nearly everyone is shooting for HYP into my evaluation of “maturity”. To reference the movie “Election” with Matthew Broderick and Reese Witherspoon, I think the pool of prep school “leaders” is enriched in Tracy Flicks. </p>
<p>As for (3), I don’t know if I believe that the prep school culture is one that necessarily values maturity. It could be, but then it could also elect the guy that throws the wildest parties. It might be that NYChomie’s classmates, at the time he attended, reflected the qualities he is asserting. However, I don’t buy the generalization that this generalization can be extended to private schools in general, or even the super-elite prep schools. I’m with Consolation here.</p>