<p>
No, I have posted repeatedly that there is insufficient data to determine whether their is a causative relationship. That is why I said that correlation cannot be taken to imply causation. This is a principal that is pretty much basic to scientific analysis. That is why I am frustrated by supposedly intelligent people who do not seem to understand such a basic proposition.</p>
<p>^^^:Thought of calling it a day.
Because it seems even GRE discontinued the separate analytical portion that included 3/4 logical reasoning and 1/4 analytical reasoning during late 1990s indicating even they think it’s not everyones cup of tea.</p>
<p>soozievt: I didn’t reply to this
because I didn’t like the statement.
</p>
<p>What do you mean by everyone else? How these students any different from your children or those who perform better than these students at their public high schools?</p>
<p>If you analyze properly then you will find out that these children don’t have educated parent like you and the school failed to do it’s job resulting in failure on these students part to not be able to matriculate to top colleges or any colleges at all.</p>
<p>Don’t you think that a good school would have done wonder for these so called everyone else students?</p>
<p>Couldn’t resists the temptation:
</p>
<p>There are multiple cause/effect relationships and a “prep HS/top Colleges” is a contributory cause/effect relationship.</p>
<p>i.e. prep HS alters the “top Colleges” matriculation. It is not necessary or sufficient cause/effect in the sense that “matriculation to top colleges” doesn’t mean the student went to prep HS or if a student go to prep HS school then student will matriculate at top college.</p>
<p>It does not require that all those students which are free of the contributory cause (didn’t attend prep HS) be free of the effect (won’t matriculate to top colleges). In other words, a contributory cause may be neither necessary nor sufficient but it must be contributory.</p>
<p>POIH…(327)</p>
<p>The kinds of students who walk in the door to the elite prep school overlaps the kinds of students who walk in the door at a public school, but the entire group of the student body at each school differs on day one. Kids who go to an elite prep school, for the most part, have parents who value education and are likely educated themselves. The parents are often of means and the kids have had many opportunities in life. I could go on but you know what I mean. Kids like that (including my own) attend public schools too. Such kids are fortunate in life. But the public school will also have kids from other backgrounds, as well as a myriad of levels of learners/ability including special needs and so on. The elite prep school screens for ability and achievement. Such kids are far easier to educate. </p>
<p>It only makes sense that if you have an entire student body made up of bright achieving types and kids with many opportunities in life and so on, many of those will go onto higher education and more selective schools. If you have a student body where some kids come from homes where the parents are not college educated and where the kids have few opportunities (can’t participate in ECs too easily, might have to take care of other children, bag groceries after school, etc.), you just are not going to get the same sort of college outcomes. It doesn’t mean the public school failed. Some of the kids and families don’t even aspire to college educations. They may wish to learn a trade. They might not have money for higher education. And so on and so forth.</p>
<p>There is a reason why a selected student body at an elite prep school will have a higher percentage of students attending elite colleges. There are more bright kids with the background to make it in. They didn’t become bright and all that jazz just in the four years at the prep school. They had the qualifications just to get into the prep school in the first place whereas the public school takes everyone including kids with low qualifications. </p>
<p>Now, IF the private elite prep school took anyone who wanted to go (all kinds of learners and backgrounds)…the same student body as say, at our HS…THEN if the elite prep school still got a higher percentage of kids into elite colleges, you’d be onto something. But until then, the elite prep school STARTED out with highly qualified kids on day one and so naturally these are the kids destined to go to very selective colleges. If you took the highest tracked classes in our high school, you’d get a similar group!</p>
<p>^^^: You can compare the statistics between the honor students at public high and prep HS to bring them at par with respect to the student body. You still will find that prep HS provide benefit to the students in that high achiever group.</p>
<p>The same thinking should in that case apply to top colleges too.</p>
<p>In my opinion it does matter what school/college/university one attends. Since it can’t be proven because everyone is unique and two different students outcome can’t be compare and the same student can’t go thru two different path, we have to agree to disagree.</p>
<p>Will you agree that your DD future will be enhanced by her grad student status at MIT?
Will you also agree that her future career will be better than if she had gone to a state university for her Phd?</p>
<p>There might be another student at a state university who might be more successful but will that undermine your DD’s experience at MIT or benefit she will get from her education there.</p>
<p>POIH…I think there is a difference in future opportunities when you talking of one’s college or grad school than one’s high school. By the way, my D is not getting a PhD. </p>
<p>Generally speaking, I think my D will do well in life due to who she is. The reason she sought selective colleges was for the experience…the challenge, the atmosphere, etc., and not because she thought the school would grant her more success in life. </p>
<p>I do think my kids are lucky to have the opportunities to go to these wonderful colleges and benefit personally from the experiences they have had there. </p>
<p>I still believe it is the person who makes it. Choosing a very selective university, at least for my kids, was due to that these schools fit them well for the kind of learner they are. It wasn’t meant to be a ticket to greater success in life than they would have at a less selective school. They genuinely liked these schools and what they offered them while there. I’m sure an added benefit (but not why they chose these schools) is the networking and people they have met. I’m glad they had such wonderful experiences in higher education.</p>
<p>Yes, it does matter what college you attend. But not in the way you are saying. I don’t think a better college means a more successful life. Rather going to a very selective college matters in terms of the kind of experience you will have there and that can be a good match for a certain kind of learner who thrives in that kind of environment and craves challenge and other learners like themselves. That’s where I think it matters, but not in terms of a ticket to success.</p>
<p>However, this thread is mostly talking about high schools and in the scheme of life, I don’t think which HS you went to will have a lot of bearing on success in life.</p>
<p>Re post #328. Please post the p values for the cause/effect relationship you propose. I’m curious to see your research.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I said a better college means a more positive outcome. What you define as outcome is up to you.
It can be more success for your DD, a better personality, a better network.</p>
<p>If there is no positive impact on your DD by going to grad school at MIT then she should not even do it.</p>
<p>On the same basis there is a positive outcome in terms of a better personality, a better college placement or a better network by going to a prep HS. </p>
<p>Since the student who is undergoing the experience is same, the environment is bound to make changes to the student personality, and future outcomes.</p>
<p>You can choose to deny but I certainly believe an environment has a large impact on any human being.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I don’t have the data with me but during 2002-2004 I did an extensive collection of bay area public and private high schools in terms of college acceptances/matriculation that clearly indicated such a relation.</p>
<p>One can do the same again and will reach the similar conclusion that there exists a contributory cause/effect relation between prep HS and college acceptance.</p>
<p>^^^Of course the prep school had more acceptances to elite colleges than the public school. But that doesn’t mean that the fact that these kids attended the prep school is what got them in. It is very likely that those same kids would have gotten in anyway. </p>
<p>I never said that going to MIT would not impact my D’s life. It has! But it is more the experience itself of attending as the reason to attend. </p>
<p>As far as prep schools, those impact one’s life experience as well. I just don’t think that necessarily translates to better success in life as much as just being influential in their upbringing and the experiences during those years. </p>
<p>Please, again, remember that only a small segment of society can afford to pay for elite prep schools. Most do not have that option. But they still can end up at elite colleges if they seek that kind of college. As an example, since my D did land at MIT for grad school and I landed at Harvard for grad school, and we both went to public schools grades K-12…does it matter if our paths to those schools differ than the path your D took? Ended up at similar types of schools anyway.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I drastically differ on this because in my view in greater scheme of life “Going to a better HS make a larger difference than going to a better college”.</p>
<p>i.e. education follows law of diminishing returns with age.</p>
<p>K-12 - Provide the most impact on human life
College - 2nd most impact
Grad - least impact.</p>
<p>So if a student go to real bad performing K-12 schools, the damage is irreversible.
A student going to bad college (or professional college) can still make amends.
A grad school will not make much difference unless you are going into academia.</p>
<p>But going to a so called worse high school can still land a kid in the kinds of colleges you aspired to for your daughter. </p>
<p>By the way, my kids were not “damaged” by their K-12 education. I think they got a good education. I’m glad for where they spent their formative years. They thrived and they were well prepared for college. I don’t see it as you do. Their schools were not damaging. They are different than your D’s prep school but the kids had many great experiences and several great teachers and lots of EC enrichment growing up. They also had many individualized accommodations. Their path in school was not ordinary in fact. Actually, our elementary school has won national awards. And my kids went to a fabulous pre-school. I’m sure you’d hate our HS but while it is not a GREAT school, the kids got a lot out of it. And then they moved onto great colleges and one went to grad school (my younger one got a professional UG degree).</p>
<p>PS, you are talking to a former public school teacher, by the way. :D</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>How does that mean the prep HS will not positively impact students? You can end up at the elite colleges from inner city non performing public high schools too.
But do you think there will not be any difference between the two students.</p>
<p>Human development is slow process and is effected by environment. The personality of any students is affected by the peer group, the community, as well as the family. Student spend majority of their time at schools, so school has the most affect on their personality, attitude, mental development.</p>
<p>Choosing the right K-12 school for the child is more important than any other decision in their life. The damages done during those years are irreparable.</p>
<p>duplicate post.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m not saying that at all. Your children are well accomplished because you as parent were there to guide them but that was not true for all students at your public HS.</p>
<p>Still I was talking about poorly performing public HS. </p>
<p>The point is that K-12 education is the most important education in any human being life.</p>
<p>There is a better probability of success in life If you have a strong education during K-12 time.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Well, we did not “choose” our kids’ high school. When you live here, the public HS Is the only option. My kids were not damaged by this.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Well, YES, parents have a HUGE impact on their children. Some kids don’t have parents who guide them well. Some kids are not afforded the same opportunities that other parents provide. I don’t think these kids are damaged by our K-12 schools, however. Regardless, it is not as if these kids have the option of a private K-12 school.</p>
<p>And ya see, kids like mine do fine going to no name public high school as they also have the benefits of the parental guidance and influence. They are fine no matter which high school they attend. If you are worried about the other kids in our town like the kids at the trailer park, what do you suggest? It is not like your elite prep school will take them in (not academically qualified in many cases) and it is not as if their parents can pay for school anyway. Those are the kids who really need the prep school. My kids were fine as their lives did not depend on how great the high school was or wasn’t.</p>
<p>
What were the parameters of your control group? And if you cannot provide a p value, then how can you claim that there was a causal relation?</p>
<p>By the way, one of my D2’s close friends from our town was salutatorian of the class and she lived in a subsidized housing project and her family were refugees. Some top students even come from the lower income segment of the community.</p>