I think @busdriver11 has a point. Yes, we have to be very careful not to paint all Muslims with the same brush and recognize that most Muslims, particularly those in the US, are as peaceful and supportive of American values as any other citizen. Yes, restricting access to our country based upon a religious litmus test is not only against our values, but also counterproductive in that it gives credence to Isis’s efforts to create a sharp divide between Muslims and non Muslims. At the same time, however, it seems a bit naive not to recognize that there are countries where vast numbers of residents are now virulently anti Western and supportive of a religious state where someone who is believed to have burned the Quran could be publicly killed to mob accolade.
Show me one post that says Islamic terrorism/refugee crisis are “no big deal”. Really, there must be some form of widespread reading disability if this is what people are gleaning from other posts. And, FYI, it was GMT who said something to the effect of “it’s not happening here, so why should we care” in their post about the IRA.
Religion in the hands of any sick persons or sick society can be poisonous. Here are the words of a famous Christian who waged a war against those of a different religion:
“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people… When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.”
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922
"So you’re saying Islamic terrorism does not exist because Hitler was Christian? Good to know "
@hayden Expect the above reply to your post from several CC members.
It kind of amuses me how guns are not the problem in mass shootings because they’re “inanimate objects” (never mind they are ones designed solely to kill) and that the people shooting are to take all the blame. Yet when it comes to attacks seemingly motivated by religion, it is the opposite, because there’s no way possible that a deranged man/woman would commit a crime and then use religion as his/her excuse. No. The religion went and whispered in their ear and urged them to commit the crime. Any other conclusion and you’re labeled as a “terrorist sympathizer” and scolded for “ignoring the Islamic terrorism problem”.
I would be very careful bringing up Hitler’s anti-Semitism in this discussion about how US citizen should view Muslims. @InfinityMan You may be asked how Jews are treated in your country. Has you country already permanently solved this “Jewish problem”?
If Jewish people are not allowed to enter into Saudi Arabia at all and everyone is fine with it why is it such an outcry that Trump wants to ban all Muslims to enter US?
@CCDD14 1) My country doesn’t have a ‘Jewish problem’. 2) Saudi Arabia still has Jewish tribes. I met some Jews when I was there. 3) Trump wants to ban ALL muslims. Believe it or not, you can be muslim and not Saudi Arabian. And I was under the impression that the USA and Saudi Arabia have inherently different ways of dealing with things. You seem to think not. Good to know.
"“Show me one post that says Islamic terrorism/refugee crisis are “no big deal”. Really, there must be some form of widespread reading disability if this is what people are gleaning from other posts.”
You are the one who posted a list of supposedly “Christian terrorist organizations”, from an article that declares that, “Here are 8 Christian Terrorist Organizations that equal ISIS”. I think you have posted this more than one time. Most of them are organizations that have been inactive for a long time, haven’t actually massacred tens of thousands of people, including children, and haven’t taken over large swaths of countries, and haven’t been massively successful spreading their ideology and violence quickly, swarming into failing countries like locusts. They certainly haven’t created millions of refugees. Many people actually afraid of the KKK nowadays? The Christian Identity Movement? The Orange Volunteers? Many people even heard of the Orange Volunteers? I know, according to your article, it’s all just a plot by the media to not publicize the violence from these Christian terrorist organizations.
However, when you try to compare this to current Islamic terror, it really does seem disturbing. It does appear that you are saying that Islamic terrorism/refugee crisis are “no big deal”, because look at what all these Christians are doing. They’re as bad or worse than ISIS. Curious what could be worse than ISIS, actually. Otherwise, why the false equivalence? Why link a bunch of mostly defunct, toothless terrorist wannabe organizations, to a discussion that features Islamic extremism?
“country doesn’t have a ‘Jewish problem’. 2) Saudi Arabia still has Jewish tribes. I met some Jews when I was there.”
Oh really now. They can practice openly? Wear stars of David necklaces? Tefillin? Prayer shawls? Run Hebrew schools? Remind me where the synagogue is In Riyadh, ok? Sorry, Saudi Arabia - a country run by sharia law and in which it’s forbidden to practice other religions openly - is in NO position to critique the U.S.
@Pizzagirl I don’t think Saudi Arabia has the right to lecture anybody, hence my post
You also seem to be under the mistaken notion that I’m Saudi Arabian. I’m not.
So you’re saying that this was your inference - i.e what * you* understood from the comments - not something the users have outright said. At least you admit that much.
I’ll repeat, for the sake of clarity: I posted these links to show that A) Terrorists from other religions also exist and that they B) Have not caused the vilification of an entire religion and its adherents. This does not, I repeat DOES NOT mean I’m saying Daesh is not dangerous or that I’m condoning their actions in any way.
Really, it’s like telling someone that by discussing a variety of diseases other than AIDS, they’re saying that AIDS is not a problem. smh
“So you’re saying that this was your inference - i.e what you understood from the comments - not something the users have outright said. At least you admit that much.”
Well certainly. People write a collection of posts, and we derive what we believe people are saying from them. If we are wrong, then hopefully the person who is misunderstood can clear up what they think is incorrect.
“Really, it’s like telling someone that by discussing a variety of diseases other than AIDS, they’re saying that AIDS is not a problem. smh”
I think it’s more like discussing the devastation of AIDS, particularly when it was spreading rapidly, not fully understood, and was considered a fatal disease…if, in the same conversation, people were to discuss how common diseases can kill people too. Look at how many people are killed by complications from colds. Infections from athletes foot. Cat scratches can kill you too.Think of how many people used to be killed by ear infections, before antibiotics.
It just doesn’t make sense to insert that into the conversation. And I think the implication would be that the writer is saying that AIDS isn’t that much of a problem, because anything can kill you.
@InfinityMan “wants to ban all Muslims”
You say it like it a bad thing. Nothing wrong with a temporary ban until we can sort out who’s who. Carter did it with the Iranians, and FDR did worse with the Japanese.
“Terrorists from other religions”
How often does that happen? Answer: not much. And 99.9% of the time when someone who’s not a muslim commits murders they aren’t doing it for their “peaceful” religion. They just happen to be from whatever religion.
Actually, what I’m seeing seems more to me like discussing the devastation of AIDS, noting that a disproportionate number of the cases occur among men who engage in homosexual behavior, and therefore drawing the conclusion that all men who engage in homosexual behavior are dangerous, and shouldn’t be allowed to do normal everyday things that others get to do, even when we’re actually talking about a minuscule risk where the vast majority of such men pose no risk.
Oh, wait—because that’s what actually happened. Still happens, if you look at the rules on blood donations in this country.
So that kind of overgeneralized broad-brush demonization is something we have a lot of practice at. So we’ve got that going for us, I suppose.
@EliteKid Japanese and Iranian people belong to certain countries, muslims live everywhere. Banning people from a religion is very different from banning citizens of a country. And if you think it might work in stopping the bad guys and will ‘help you figure things out’, then by all means let it happen. It’d be interesting to see how ‘well’ it works lol. ‘Figure out who’s who’. Honestly. Just remember that if this absurd law ever comes to pass (I have a feeling it won’t lol) that you advocated for what is basically a repeal of the Freedom of Religion Clause in the First Amendment. If - big if - it ever comes to pass, I have feeling that all who supported this would be in the same position that those who voted for the Iraq War are in today: shifting the blame and offering up lame excuses. It is sad that we as humans seem to study history but never learn from it. And for heaven’s sake don’t throw wrong stats like that around. It’s like me saying “99 % of all mass shootings are done by white Christian males”.
Actually, @dfbdfb, the FDA just announced recommendations to modify the policy about blood donations from gay males http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=117970&page=1
Besides one brand new poster on this thread, is there anybody on this thread seriously arguing to ban Muslims from traveling to the US? That’s not even rational.
I’m having trouble following the argument here. busdriver11 says that ISIS and the Taliban are radical fundamentalist Muslims who have a murderous terrorist ideology and are killing people both at home and abroad, and we need to take this threat seriously. Everyone agrees with this.
Pizzagirl and others say that Saudis who live in our ally Saudi Arabia treat women appallingly. Almost everyone agrees with this, too.
InfinityMan says that most Muslims around the world hate ISIS and the Taliban, and think that the ISIS interpretation of Islam and the Taliban interpretation of Islam are horrible perversions of the religion most Muslims practice. Everyone agrees with this, too, I think.
So where is the disagreement?
Latest video released by Abu Bakr al Baghdadi is quite clear about his goals:
He also promises a battle aimed at Israel.
That’s nothing new. al Baghdadi has been saying that all along. He’s calling on the ummah, the worldwide Muslim community, to join his apocalyptic war. The ummah is rejecting his call, and his claimed authority, in great numbers.
Interestingly, the ummah is now generally interpreted to be the worldwide Muslim community, but originally, in the early days of the Muslim expansion, the ummah was the alliance, which included “people of the Book:” Muslims, but also Christians and Jews. The Qu’ran contains rules about dividing up the spoils of war among these groups.
"I’m having trouble following the argument here. busdriver11 says that ISIS and the Taliban are radical fundamentalist Muslims who have a murderous terrorist ideology and are killing people both at home and abroad, and we need to take this threat seriously. Everyone agrees with this.
Pizzagirl and others say that Saudis who live in our ally Saudi Arabia treat women appallingly. Almost everyone agrees with this, too.
InfinityMan says that most Muslims around the world hate ISIS and the Taliban, and think that the ISIS interpretation of Islam and the Taliban interpretation of Islam are horrible perversions of the religion most Muslims practice. Everyone agrees with this, too, I think.
So where is the disagreement?"
Good point. I suspect that we are not arguing against each other, but against politician’s talking points.
I think the disagreement comes in when we start to address what should be done to minimize any threat to Americans. It’s a hard question to answer.
France seems to have put aside civil rights and utilized their “state of emergency” law to close some mosques and since November has raided over 2200 private homes without judicial oversight. They have taken over 225 people into custody and confiscated over 300 weapons from private citizens.
Not sure that sort of action would pass muster here, but who knows what will happen if events like San Bernadino become more frequent. Or another large scale attack might have us changing our tune.