Scale of 1 to 10: How Much do You Value Honesty?

Parent Cafe
1

And how much does your spouse/partner and kids of any age value it?

This isn’t a politics thread but if you have not lived under a rock recently you might agree that basic honesty seems to be going out of style at all levels and there seems to be zero consequences for it (but there might be endless investigations so we have that going for us as a country).

Turn on any episode of cops and you will see lying until you turn the channel or get to a commercial. A co-worker’s son is a cop. He told me at a meeting the other day his son told him he gets lied to basically by 90% of the people he meets.

There is a thread here that I just scanned about how a parent should react to a teacher. I didn’t read the whole thread. I’m certainly not saying anyone in that thread lied but since I am a classroom teacher I will tell you what students tell other people and what they write on Rate My Professor are not always truthful. It turns out, the easier the class is the better the teacher is in many, many cases. God forbid an actual teacher give the students the grades they actually earn. Are you kidding me?

But this thread isn’t about RMP.

It is about how much you and your family values honesty.

I’m not talking about telling your aunt her crabcake tastes good after you just went the bathroom to spit it out either. Everyone lies in that situation. Sure, of course, your children are lovely and hard working people. Of course they are! I’m not talking about that kind of fibbing I am talking about alternative reality borderline insane lying. Is that the way things are now or what in your experiences?

2

“Turn on any episode of cops and you will see lying until you turn the channel or get to a commercial.”
You don’t mean that the lies stop when the commercial starts, do you?

3

Unfortunately there is a culture out there where lying is acceptable (and I am not talking the little white lies we tell, like ‘honey, does this make me look fat’ kind of thing:) as long as it is towards a goal. Whether it is lying on a resume (it is kind of ironic that the current Secretary of the Treasury basically lied his way into the job at Goldman, claiming expertise in options when he had none at the time) or in saying things you know there is no backing for but that are expedient, it is all over the place. The employers for example who claim “We give our employees ample time off and encourage them to take it” when that is basically a bald faced lie, or the kids trying to get into schools with these impressive list of EC’s they claim a ‘passion’ for when they are doing it to look good, etc. I also believe that lying in the end does come back to haunt people, even if I am not around to see it.

I think where people lie the most is to themselves, though, when they tell themselves that lying is no big deal, that if the end comes out okay it is fine, and don’t look at the cost of maintaining those lies. I can forgive someone lying to me if they had good intentions or thought they were protecting me, but someone who lies to me where that lie was either hurtful to myself or allowed something even worse to happen than the thing they were lying about.

4

I am an intensely honest person. My wife is even more honest than I am. We raised our kids to be honest to a fault although common sense comes into play and if you have to lie to prevent from hurting someone’s feelings (No, God no, that dress? You mean that dress? No, it isn’t the dress that makes you look fat, why do you even ask?, it is the fact that you eat like a horse and never work out that is doing it. But I jest!), from being hurt.

On top of that, we do not want anything we have not earned. That characteristic came back to bite me in the ass back when my older son was playing football at the highest classification in high school. He would not promote himself in any way when nearly every other kid on the team kissed so much butt, their parents helped out too, that it absolutely cost him. You think it is just the performance on the field that counts? Boy, are you naive. If it is valuable and in scare supply, like playing time, people will fight for it in any way possible.

My older son wouldn’t defend himself in any way. He felt like if he didn’t earn it he didn’t want it. He would never lie on a resume or application and I am proud of him for that but also feel like I over taught him a little.

5

I greatly value honesty. If my kids do something wrong, I want the bad news immediately–so whatever needs to be done to fix the situation–whether it’s just an apology or repair/replacement of an item, etc. I tell my kids that if they lie to cover up–when the situation is exposed, which it usually is, they not only are found out–that they did that bad thing-- they are a liar/dishonest because they tried to cover it up, and no one will trust them afterwards. And it has often gotten harder to fix because time has passed. (I don’t get mad when I hear the truth right away.)

Now here is a way that I am not perfectly honest: Once I bought some shorts for my daughter. When she tried them on at home, she found a $3 jewelry item in the pocket of the shorts. The tiny package was torn and taped with scotch tape. It even had a security sticker attached, which didn’t go off when I left the store (that would’ve looked bad. . .) I did not return this item to the store because I didn’t think it was worth it for $3 item, and I wasn’t sure how to do this without making myself look suspicious (tell customer service I accidently stole it? or take it into the store and just leave it near similar items? It looked used/damaged anyway. )Though I did have something I didn’t pay for, I didn’t really feel guilty about it because I did not take it on purpose. (If it were a higher priced item, I would take it back.) Another situation: say I’m in a grocery line and the checker makes a mistake, charging me twice for the same item. I am going to point that out right away if I notice it. But what if I see that I am not charged for an item? Do I point that out? Probably not. So, small mistake in my favor=Good luck! Small mistake in store’s favor=They are trying to rip me off! I think these types of mistakes even out over time–that is how I justify not pointing out a mistake, I guess.
OTOH, if I were in someone’s house and saw a penny on the floor, I wouldn’t touch it. Or I might pick it up and put in on a table or counter. But I would never put it in my pocket. Not sure why I feel differently about a penny in a store vs. penny in a house.

And I think white lies are OK to avoid hurting someone’s feelings (telling someone you like their haircut, gift, etc.) but I would not make up elaborate stories to explain why I didn’t attend an event. (I’ve seen people get caught up in their own white lies–making different excuses to different people, forgetting what they told to whom–it’s silly when adults do this.)

I think, in general, there is less moral training in our society lately. Kids aren’t taught the 10 Commandments, etc. Many people just live by “Whatever I can get away with is OK.” If you don’t believe in heaven/hell/punishment/karma then why not? I think there is a lot more “looking out for number one” than “loving your neighbor” going on these days.

Some people really have trouble telling the truth if they think the other person will be upset or disagree at that moment. They try to read the other person, then say whatever they think he/she wants to hear. They can re-write history instantly in their own minds to make things come out to their own advantage (No, I’m not at fault, Yes, I said the correct answer, Yes, I already finished the job, etc.) Some kids grow up with an addicted or abusive parent-- where the other parent constantly pretends that “Everything is fine!” I’ve seen a few families like this, and the kids tend to be dishonest. It is hard for them to know what the truth is when they keep hearing that “Bad is good,” plus, they get in the habit of lying or covering up to avoid a parent’s anger, or just to make their own reality that is more pleasant than their actual situation. In some cases, they don’t know what “reality” really is. They actually believe their own lies. ( I think that this is the crazy, maddening kind of stuff the OP is talking about)

I’d put myself around an 8 out of 10–quite honest, but not super scrupulous. I don’t have anything I would want to lie about, so that keeps my life simple!

6

Usually, commercials are done so that whatever they say is technically true, but can be very misleading. Politicians used to strive for that, but seem to be less concerned about being technically truthful these days.

I can see why people being arrested try to lie their way out of the reason for being arrested. But surely police officers encounter other people in their jobs who are not always lying, right? (Though it is understandable that police officers would encounter more lying than most people.)

7

Not to get sidetracked into a religious discussion, but I utterly reject the contention that people who are not of these religions (or who are atheists) are just going to do whatever the heck they want to do. It’s an insult considering the last 6000+ years of human history.

8

I may have made too big an issue of honesty when our kids were very young (4 - 6) and tended to lie to cover their misbehavior but they eventually understood that we’d be much more lenient with them if they told the truth up front. When they got older, they saw for themselves the troubles caused by an elderly relative who had lied, embellished, rewritten history, etc. for as long as we could remember. This person created so many problems for herself and others by lying, often randomly and for no discernible reason.

We also taught our kids that we value kindness at least as much as honesty, and there are most often ways to answer tricky questions kindly without lying. It might not always work, but usually you can reply without answering the question asked and say something positive.

9

I don’t place a particularly high value on honesty for most people. But I value honesty in institutions that are supposed to be honest – like the news media.

I guess what I really care about is the quality of people’s work. For those businesses/institutions/individuals for whom honesty is an important part of quality work, I feel that honesty is very important.

10

I value and appreciate honesty from everyone I interact with. I admit that I am sometimes very skeptical of some people - some of the families I work with in my volunteer work are clearly troubled. Sometimes I just bite my tongue when I know they are lying - the mom that came in and wanted to get some of the donated items we have on hand, I know she knows the rule of once per month for some items and that she has already been in this month. I am not as big an idiot as I look, and I can tell she knows I know, but to me it isn’t worth arguing over four cans of soup, a can of chicken and a can of tuna, a loaf of day-old bread, and a couple boxes of mac and cheese. What bothers me is the “I aint never heard no limit on how often we can come in here, is that a new rule?” when I personally explained the policy that the board came up with, clients have to initial and date on their own index card when they get items.

If I get asked about this by anyone on the board (which I doubt), I will honestly tell them since we don’t have security here, and since we happen to have done well with food donations this month thanks to a high school food drive, I did not feel comfortable being asked to enforce this policy and turn away a hungry family.

But at other times, I don’t get the gall of some people. Yesterday one of my doctors was running 25 min late - for a 4PM apt, that wasn’t terrible. One man came in after me and two other people, didn’t sign the book, and insisted to the staff that he was there first even though he hadn’t checked in. I saw him pull in the parking lot out the window as I sat down in the waiting room. He made quite a scene, and finally the nurse took him back and put him in the far corner exam room. She returned and apologized to everyone in the waiting room, and assured us she knew the right order that patients needed to be seen, and that she would tell the doctor it was her way to placate him - in the grown up “time-out room”.

At least his car was still in the parking lot when I left.

Like @atomom, I consider myself to be an honest person but I don’t always go out of my way when a small mistake is made in my favor. So I will give myself an 8 out of 10 as well

11

Let me approach the issue a different way. Honesty is all fine and dandy up until the point that you or your son or daughter gets screwed out of something by someone else who is lying or sucking up. That is when you find out how strong your convictions and principals are. I know we can’t talk politics, fine, but if Candidate A, in a hypothetical election, loses to Candidate B in part because Candidate B has a loose relationship with the truth don’t tell me Candidate A and all of Candidate A’s followers aren’t burned up about it.

I fully realize that there are multiple reasons people lose elections including the fact that Candidate A sucks eggs as well. But, you know what I mean, I hope. Everyone has lost jobs, promotions, playing time, or something even more serious playing against other people who think lying is just fine. It is truly an epidemic of lying out there right now IMHO.

12

I value honesty, but I also appreciate human nature. I guess that makes me a pragmatist.

When I was younger, I wouldn’t tell my parents the truth about everything. Did they really need to know I was sleeping with my boyfriend or that I had tried smoking? Of course, they also knew not to ask some questions.

I do correct cashiers if they make mistakes in my favor if I notice them before I leave the store. After I’m home, it would take a pretty egregious error to make me go back in.

I like the idea of kindness overruling honesty.

13

I think I’m a 9 out of 10. That 1 is for being tactful (or at least silent) about things like bad haircuts. But I try hard to be honest, even when it is something where I messed up or look bad. It has earned me a lot of respect in my profession, I think. And with my kids.

14

I would rate honesty a 10. I think calling someone a liar is the worst thing you can call someone.

15

What you are suggesting in the last sentence is that people in general value honesty less, since even getting caught lying or cheating seems to penalized less than before, unless those who catch the liar or cheater really want to go after the liar or cheater for some other reason and have the power to do so.

16

I rate honesty as incredibly important for myself, my family, and those I hold in high esteem. Easiest way to get off my Nice List is to lie or be dishonest to me. I’ll still deal with you, but I won’t respect you or trust you much.

Re: Rate My Professor - I was just thinking about this professor/teacher thing the other day when one of my kids and I had a discussion about a fairly mediocre, fairly lazy professor. I asked if the prof had many complaints. The answer was no. Child and I came to the conclusion that was because this professor is also a very easy grader. I think the prof knows he doesn’t put much effort into his teaching and one of his ways of helping to ensure he doesn’t get called out on it often is to hand out easy grades.

17

Our family values honesty highly, and we do our best to adhere to that value. Every day, our son passes a monument at his college where that value is carved in stone:

Honor violations are taken very seriously there. Failing an honor board for lying can mean the immediate end to a cadet’s career.

18

Since the beginning of time teachers have had to balance the goals of getting students ready for the “Real World” which includes more advanced classes and life after college against the goal of having students like you enough to tell their friends to sign up for your class. If no one enrolls in your classes because you are too hard, or people think you are hard, or because you are lazy or can’t teach, then you are screwed. Of course, if you are really easy you will have people saying great things about you and attendance will take care of itself.

The Holy Grail is when you prepare them for the RW and they respect you and like you for doing it. That happens. But not as often as it used too and not nearly as much as every form of grade grubbing on earth. And, as far as passing people, in some cases they make that impossible because lazy is not a one way street. Lazy is a two way street.

What I find amusing though is when parents or students here and other places say they want teachers to teach their kids critical thinking and analysis skills and cover all the course LO’s and so forth. We all “want” that but very few students are willing to do their part to earn it which includes being prepared for class, taking notes, doing the assignments, being on time, asking questions, etc. Do people really want what they say they want? I don’t know. I’ll tell you this, not many people are really willing to earn it at least not at the ages I see.

I used to be against online classes, however, I am not as against them as I used to be. I am finding that students are succeeding at the same rate OL as F2F in one of the entry level classes I teach a lot of. It is not kosher for me to use the word “lazy” when I am at work, I am not at work now, and no one knows my name anyway, but let me just tell you it is not pretty out there right now. A full day’s work for a full days pay is a joke on both sides.

19

By the way, in an OL class, students basically teach themselves. There is “support” from the teacher but I know more than my fair share of teacher’s who are lazy and think teaching is just posting materials they get from the publishers and expecting their students to learn it. Not one thing that they post did they even create themselves. I can’t tell you how many times at teaching conferences, when the deans were not around, some of these teachers were laughing about how all that works. One teacher I work with refers students to the book when they ask questions!

Anyway, my point is, it says something when the OL students with very little teacher contact are learning as well as the F2F students. Take the teacher away … and you might not lose a whole heck of a lot!

20

Rate my professor for the most part is useless, because as others have pointed out a lot of kids rate hard teachers down while rating ‘easy’ teachers highly, the criteria they are using is not necessarily if the person is a good teacher. I have read their reviews of music teachers I know and I had to laugh, they rated highly a teacher who did things like bring cookies into the lesson and who is so nice, whose students I can tell you, well, to be kind, aren’t necessarily that great, whereas a teacher many complain is ‘aweful’ turns out kids who at the very least, play technically at a high level (if they complained about lack of musical or artistic expression being emphasized, they would be right).

I rate honesty highly because of the impact it has both on the liar and those they lie to, you don’t have to get into metaphysics like Karma or law of 3 or whatnot to see that, that the liar is hurt because depending on how big the lie is, they spend a lot of time consciously or unconsciously defending it, if to themselves. Not to mention what happens to others because of the lie, what potentially can happen.

We all lie to ourselves, human beings can rationalize all kinds of things for example that rationally they know aren’t true, we make ourselves believe bad choices were good ones, or that the ‘road less travelled’ was the path we did choose and it was the best one, always lol.

We tried never to lie to our son and one of the reasons is that we wanted to build the kind of trust where he knew he didn’t have to lie to us, if he felt we were honest with him we hoped he would model the same behavior, that as tough as the truth can be that a lie only delays the inevitable.