Scale of 1 to 10: How Much do You Value Honesty?

Parent Cafe
41

Emigrate to a more honest society.

When a society has high levels of dishonesty and acceptance of dishonesty resulting in high levels of corruption, it can be very difficult for an honest person to get anywhere. For example, someone who does not want to pay expected bribes may not get the business registration from the government that s/he is supposed to get, or employment that is theoretically open to him/her. Of course, in such societies, obeying the law as written probably does not matter as much as avoiding making enemies among those in power, due to selective enforcement and enforcement using creative interpretations or alternative facts even when the target obeys the law as written.

42

I would consider giving up my citizenship here or getting duel citizenship somewhere else. We are at $19.8 T in debt as a nation. That is $61,214 per citizen and $165,653 per taxpayer. Google the national debt clock.

And that is before whatever debt ballooning tax reduction program they pass kicks in. It is insane that US Equity markets are trending up. Believe it or not, before you even posted this in #40, I was thinking the exact same thing.

Where to?

Don’t know.

But we are clearly not headed in the right direction and we are not even talking about the problems that we should be talking about and yet roughly half the country expects government to do almost everything for them including proving entitlements left and right but they don’t want to pay for much of it.

Insanity.

43

We were raised that honesty was most important and that with it, we would always receive unconditional love. “White lies” were ok so as not to hurt someone’s feeling unnecessarily.

I’ve raised my daughter the same way and expect her to be 100% honest with me. However, I have knowingly allowed her to lie and use certain excuses to avoid certain situations, or use me as an “out.”

–Example with excuse: Daughter goes to a sleepover party, realizes the kids just plan to stay up all night and smoke pot and watch horror movies. This is not her cup of tea, so she all of a sudden “doesn’t feel well” and wants me to pick her up.

–Example using me as an “out”: Daughter’s invited to a party but doesn’t want to go, knowing ahead of time there will be lots of drinking. She might use me as an excuse to say, “sorry, I would love to come, but mom won’t let me go out tonight”

In these examples, she’s not hurting anyone. Her friends generally know she doesn’t partake in these activities but she doesn’t feel the need to call them out on it and make it a big deal if they want to partake. She just joins them when they have other plans (which is the majority of the time anyway).

I’ve worked in some cutthroat environments and I just don’t get it. People always stabbing each other in the back to get ahead or just for the simple pleasure. I don’t like it and I don’t think it’s ok under any circumstance. Environments like that are just toxic. I think it’s sad.

In my current job, I tell my teammates that we should all be on “auto-defend” about each other. We should always ‘have each other’s back.’ This is important to build trust and fosters an environment where you enjoy working together, are able to get more accomplished and ultimately succeed and get ahead.

I work with many many clients and vendors and am honest and upfront with all. Integrity is key. I’m well respected in my industry and I think that’s important. Also, in my industry, everyone talks. People who are not nice can get a bad reputation and it can come back to haunt them - If they are laid off, for example, and are looking for another job, the hiring manager asks around and guess what? What goes around comes around.

So, for the question of “stay honest or play the game?” I’m 100% stay honest - learn to advocate for yourself if you need to, but in a truthful manner.

44

I blame a lot of the political backstabbing in work environments on management, especially top management. One needs to be very careful about the culture that is set up as well as the pay and evaluation structure. At some companies, it is done in such a way that there is no surprise that the atmosphere is toxic and cut-throat. Things like poorly executed peer evaluations and the ranking of employees. Sounds good in theory, but the results can be counterproductive. I think some employers think it increases productivity by having employees compete against each other. Personally, I find it destructive and detrimental to a cooperative, team-oriented workplace.

45

It can also result in existing employees being reluctant to recommend hiring a potentially better employee because having a better employee join will push the existing employees down in the ranking system.

But then perhaps parents and high school students in Texas who have been playing the class rank game are familiar with the sometimes perverse incentives that focusing on rank causes.

46

Yes, @ucbalumnus, and also the sharing of information because the corporate structure and competition create an atmosphere where information is deemed to be power.

IMO, competition should be against the firm’s competitors not within the ranks.

There should also be a system where one can be appreciated, recognized, and rewarded for doing one’s job well while staying in place not just through trying to step on one’s coworkers to get into the funnel for increasingly limited higher positions.

47

Competition is a good thing. But it definitely can create some incentives toward what you would call bad behavior. Problem often is what works with certain people does not work for all. So incentives that may have worked when a given company was smaller no longer work when it grows and adds new people. Is job of management to adjust but often necessary changes are never made.

48

Or they are made because it is some new trendy corporate productivity idea but little thought is given to whether it makes sense for one’s own business and type of employees. If you don’t understand what motivates your employees, be careful of implementing a “motivational” system.

49

Honest people don’t consider this a question.

50

I have a friend who us a 10 on the honesty scale. She clipped a tour bus but the driver didn’t notice it. She followed the driver for miles to give her info and pay for the damage. That’s the type of person she is–Integrity with a capital I. She was afraid the driver would lose his job for unexplained damage that wasn’t his fault.

I’m probably a 8.

51

I come from a family that would rather lie than live with familial discord. DW is the opposite and relationships in her family are often strained and sometimes broken.

I value kindness over honesty, like to imagine I would have helped on the Underground Railroad or hiding Jews from the Germans, lying every day if necessary. Leave Hell to those who value honesty more.

52

^Good point - “values” don’t exist in a vacuum.

53

My son is a HUGE liar. In CCD class, he told the teacher he was thinking about becoming a priest, and I wound up getting recruiting phone calls from my parish on my cell phone for 6 years.

On a middle school field trip, he told the HS band teacher that he couldn’t decide between the oboe and the French Horn, when he plays the drums, and wasn’t even GOING to that high school.

He had everyone believing that he went to that high school, because he rode the same bus as his GF, and wanted to spend a few more minutes with her in the morning.

He told his physics teacher that he was color blind. No reason. To his credit, he feels guilty about that.

He nervously purchased condoms when he was in sixth grade just to be funny. The sales clerk told him “better to be safe.”

In college, he lied about having a company, then created one, so he could be paid for a job in real money rather than food court dollars.

But he’s always shown up for work and classes, and done an honest day’s work, and has real talent to back up the BS. And he’s kind and considerate to everyone he encounters. And I love his audacity.

As for me, I go with Paul Simon’s lyric, “Honesty it’s such a waste of energy. No, you don’t have to lie to me. Just give me some tenderness beneath your honesty.”

As far as @GoNoles85 and the “kiss up” kids and your kid not self-promoting, I’m not sure that’s an honesty issue. But it’s a good question.

Edit: I’d give myself a 7/10 and my son a 5/10 (in his case, depending on if there’d be a funny outcome).

54

Lying to save lives is not what this thread is about. Please don’t hijack. I’m talking about lying to get ahead of other people that don’t lie whether it is at work, at school, in an application, etc or when our elected leaders do it for any reason. It is not politics it is BS. If our leaders do it, from both sides of the aisle, it sets a clear message to young people to do what you got to do to win. That is what this thread about. If you have noticed that kind of stuff in your world how do you deal with it and I’m sorry ChoatieMom I do not live in a bubble so asking questions like the one I asked are entirely appropriate. Are you going to act like you don’t know people who lie to get ahead? You are very lucky!

55

The title of this thread belies your intent when you started it. I’d be willing to bet that nobody wants to hijack your thread, but very few want to participate in the thread as you wish it to progress.

56

And like I said in the OP no one is worried about white lies and fibs done to prevent from hurting people’s feelings. If you are lying to the Nazi’s to save lives that is obviously not a problem. Obviously honesty can be bent a little there. That is kind of obvious. The Nazi’s don’t deserve the truth. Got it. Cool. Moving on now.

57

But you want to focus on “kissing up” and “self promoting” which isn’t really about honesty at all. So why didn’t you say that in the first place? You lured people in with the 1 to 10 nonsense, but you really want to talk about your son and the A-kissers who pushed themselves ahead of him. Which is kind of about honesty, but not really. I get that you prefaced this with a tale of your football kid. The thread you started is interesting, and so would be the other idea. But if you only want to talk about what you want to talk about, and we all have to “move on” then I’ll be one of those that move on.

58

Please do.

No, I don’t want to talk about my son or argue.

59

It seems to be more about ethics than 100% honesty. I’m fine with that.

I’ve had tricky situations with people I know where they’ll tell me something they did, not apologetically, but with an “everybody does it” attitude, as if that makes cheating OK.

No, I don’t want to hear how you “got your inheritance early” so your mother could basically commit Medicaid fraud, or how you claimed a fishing trip as a tax deduction, etc., etc. I’ll button my lip and not say anything but there’s no controlling my eyebrows.

I’m also astonished at how many people think they won’t get caught. Lying about a college degree you don’t have on a public web site and your husband is running for president? Craziness.

60

Thanks, @greenwitch

I think some people are still honest and do still take responsibility for mistakes or, for example, where I work, when they don’t turn things in on time or miss a test or something similar. Other people lie about it without even blinking an eye. Lying for some people is so second nature they don’t even know they are doing it.

That does bother me and I always want to help out the people who are honest.

And yes, certainly, integrity, ethics, all in the same basket really.