@Empireapple --not going to say what’s best for K-12. That’s a whole nother set of issues best decided by those there. And needs and issues for K and early grades may look much different from HS needs and issues. So I’ll let you decide.
As to non-responsive instructors, that’s bad teaching in whatever mode it was delivered. My students know they will get email answered within hours, often minutes (as I am basically living on my laptop) unless it’s very late at night. And even then, maybe. (I’ve had some fruitful discussions after midnight, sometimes just reassuring the student that yes, you CAN write that paper, here’s a plan, wow what you have to deal with right now is terrible, how can I help you make it work–don’t give up!). I probably spend at least twenty hours a week just on grading (which means commenting on drafts, not slapping grades on). I do this for seventy plus students. Next semester it will be 100, as they aren’t allowed to hire back adjuncts at this point, so class sizes have been increased by 30%).
And I’ve known of f2f instructors in the “other times” who didn’t respond to emails, never graded anything, don’t know how to use Canvas, etc. (not in Writing though. Are program has very high expectations which we live up to.)
funny you should bring up Joyce Carol Oates, Princeton was finally able to convince her to move to emeritus status at age 80 after giving her yet more benefits. Although a brilliant writer (which is why she was hired) she was not widely regarded as an extraordinary teacher on campus by those in her class. I am glad some younger professors finally had a chance to move up.
I’m worried about online classes based on how high school is going. My son is getting a B in Calc this semester. It’s the first time he hasn’t easily pulled an A in a math class ever. He just isn’t good about reaching out for help remotely. When he was in school and struggling with a concept he would just stop by the teacher’s office before or after school and talk to him. I don’t know if it’s too much hassle to work through calc problems together or if it’s just senior slide and he doesn’t care anymore.
And that’s another thing…he doesn’t seem to be doing as well mentally anymore either sitting at a computer all day. He’s not one to be into sports or working out as a hobby so he’s not getting any exercise which I’m sure has a lot to do with it. On campus he was running around from building to building and there are four floors of stairs they are going up and down all the time. Plus all the in-person socialization and screwing around. He was in concert band and jazz bland and played with both of them everyday now he’s forced to just record himself and do other solitary assignments for grading for those classes which he doesn’t enjoy at all. All of this is taking it’s toll and I’m really concerned how this will play out if it is a long-term deal.
@cshell2 I have a friend whose son is a college freshman math major. He was top of his class in high school and had no problem staying top of his class first semester of college. He has a C in his current math class and is struggling even with hours of working at it. He is committed to going next year even if it’s online but is considering changing his major.
That is too bad. These are they types of consequences that will likely be lost when we ultimately are able to measure the impact of this whole situation.
The bottom line it tells us is that it’s sharing air space indoors for a prolonged time (i.e., over dinner, at a social gathering, and yes, in a classroom) with folks in close proximity who aren’t wearing masks that carries the most risk. Walking by someone in a park or even a store carries less risk. Picking up the virus from surfaces also seems less of a risk than we may have thought. This piece also shows the role air ventilation in a room plays a role in carrying the virus.
I posted this earlier but just to reiterate, I think the article implies that simply living in dorms is perhaps less problematic than we thought in terms of spread b/c students are spread across many rooms. Students are only sharing air space with their roommates. Nursing homes are different b/c you have personal caregivers going room to room spreading the virus. And cruise ships had big gatherings, buffets, etc.; I recall reading that once passengers stayed in their rooms after an outbreak spread slowed? There will be no buffets in college dining halls this year, and there will be restrictions to reduce dining hall seating density.
I think where the conversation on this thread is missing the boat is assuming ‘business as usual’ if classes are held in person this Fall. I think/hope some colleges (at least those that will come out on top) are dramatically re-thinking Fall semester learning in very significant ways.
For example, colleges could create more experiential and/or project-based learning that purposefully embeds ways to reduce risk of spread. I could see capstone projects included in most classes, pairing students with mentors in their field identified through the college that they connect with virtually. These projects (small group or independent) could replace some of the face-to-face class sessions and instead students connect with mentors and faculty one-on-one on a regular basis. Or, everyone takes one whole class that is capstone/research based – in colleges with 4 classes, that’d reduce class based interactions by 25% right off the bat. And, these are just a couple ideas – there are lots of other ways to create experiential or project-based learning.
Colleges can also use more outdoor learning time, use a campus’ larger spaces (art galleries, performance spaces, etc.) for learning to distance students and faculty, and embed some online learning where needed.
And yes, I think students WILL wear masks which really can make a big difference. My D’s LAC has a strong honor code and not appropriately wearing a mask when it’s deemed necessary would certainly be a violation.
Finally, adjuncts are woefully underpaid, and I completely understand why the traditional face-to-face course without appropriate modifications may not seem to be worth the personal risk.
It’s my hope that college administrators and faculty can collaborate to figure out new ways to carry out high quality learning that are better than just online classes – which clearly do not satisfy most students or professors – and do this in ways that can keep folks safer than traditional classrooms.
Our local K-12 will have a virtual school option for families that need/want to continue schooling from home this fall. There have been a lot of high school students working essential jobs in my area and many of them will choose the virtual option not to decrease exposure risk to the virus, but to increase the hours they can work. I’m worried these work hours will lead to high school drop out rates increasing as these young people step up to help their families put food on the table.
Like your last paragraph … Professor’s didn’t just fall off the turnip truck… Just made me laugh ??.
But one thing this year for my son even with video classes this semester was something else you said. He is being taught by some of “the” lead professors for his field, period. Like every article on the subject they either authored or co-authored. This was exciting to him and of course this is not every subject or school so I get that. But even my daughter at her small Lac had professors that were tops in their fields. For both of them the light bulb went off about why we are paying what we are paying. It’s the same information regardless if it’s in a zoom class or not. It’s the same professor in a zoom class or not. It’s the same or similar teaching method if it’s in zoom class or not. The tests actually seemed harder with the zoom classes.
My daughter just finished her 70 page senior thesis. It wasn’t easier or less then since she wasn’t in class. Her professor on zoom wasn’t less then. Her education this last semester and my son’s weren’t less then. Different sure. Easier… No.
Less then… No. Do they want regular classes (well my daughter graduates in 2 weeks) of course. Does my son see some advantages of online classes or prerecorded classes. Yes.
Everyone can debate for another 3,000 posts. If school are not online it will be a hybrid semester at least. No questions about that. Wearing masks is the new normal. Using zoom or the like for some classes /meetings etc is here to stay. Can actually be easier and more efficient in certain circumstances and I know I have said this all before. Take a gap year if you think that is the best solution. Next year won’t look terribly different. So many families I know that said no way to fall semester are all back tracking now. Their kids want to be with their friends regardless. They are wearing masks now and understand,OK… This is what I need to do. For others staying home and doing something else maybe like online classes to learn a computer language or something… Hmm…that would still be online classes but at home with the parents. Hmmm…
Aldis by me is hiring for a manager $18 /hour. Not bad but probably in contact with more people daily then in their own apartment or dorms.
Traveling is questionable during this next semester /year.
I used to cut grass as a kid but there’s companies for that now.
Not sure what I would have my kids do if this continued into the fall. My son’s internship as you know was canceled. He’s applying daily to others. Hasn’t given up yet. Not our families style anyway. He might take some courses online for a certificate that might help him when applying to jobs. Might try to learn mandarin better. Have no clue if he stayed home what he would do in the fall. Staying up late playing internet baseball to very late (his team won 5 world series… Lol) isn’t going to continue.
I would really like to know what kids are honestly planning to do in the fall if things are similar.
Connecticut Governor Ned Lamont was just interviewed and stated he was still “hopeful” of a Fall re-opening for both K-12 and colleges and universities (Yale, Wesleyan, Trinity, UCONN, Connecticut, Quinnnipiac, etc.) but that the nature of residential halls could cause decisions regarding them “to come last” because they are so densely populated. I’m paraphrasing as best I can, but that was the gist of what he said.
Thanks @AlmostThere2018 for posting that link.
So would opening a window in a classroom or office conference help to diminish the spread? Would turning off the a/c help?
I must say I have great empathy for the students who are struggling with online learning. For so many it isn’t just a case of “ grin and bear it” like some like to suggest.
I too worry about the long term consequences for young people who are having a hard time.
I’m glad some of you have kids that are being taught by famous people and top professors in their fields. Most kids are not. Can we leave that out of the discussion here? I don’t know see how its relevant to how classes will be conducted in the fall except maybe your situation isn’t as bad as most people’s.
So I write as a parent of two homeschoolers who took online classes for middle school and the first year (D23) or two years (D21) of high school. They have a ton of experience with all different types of online courses in all core subjects. D21 spent this past year on two different college campuses doing in-person courses after having spent five years as an online student (middle school and 9th and 10th), and D23 will spend 10th-12th grade as a community college in-person student getting an AA degree in place of a traditional high school education. I say in-person, but of course for 2020-2021, that will mean whatever it means in terms of what is possible with their specific college campuses and COVID-19.
We deliberately chose the online options in place of our local school systems for middle school and early high school. (Bear with me, this relates to colleges and online learning). Both my daughters are advanced in certain areas, and our local public high school was unwilling/unable to accommodate my girls where they were at. We will be full pay for college, but wanted to avoid the expense of private schools for the high school years (so we could more easily be full pay for college).
So, FWIW, in the hopes this is helpful to folks, here is what works – very well - in terms of online learning (or at least this has what worked for my two):
Excellent and dedicated instructors. The kind that responds to emails within the hour, or at least has a team of TAs to respond within the hour.
Discussion boards with the teacher and/or TAs monitoring and responding to questions and comments ASAP.
Engaging materials. Videos PLUS interactive Q&As PLUS WebAssign-type problems PLUS live sessions whenever possible PLUS extreme organization PLUS daily notes and comments from the teacher/professor reacting each day to whatever has been going on with the students the day before.
A mature and responsible attitude on behalf of the student toward managing time, getting things done without being told multiple times, and an understanding that no one will be holding their hand in terms of reminders, etc. Maturity and time management are key factors. All due dates are there, in writing. If a student can’t meet those due dates without a person in front of them reminding them every other day, then that’s going to be a problem. So students need to be responsible and learn how to manage their time on their own.
As to teachers with young kids. My two have had live meetings with teachers whose kids have cried or wandered into the room or whatever. So what. Teachers are often parents. Everyone needs to be flexible and understanding and okay with teachers asking a student to wait a sec while the needs of a young child is attended to. That does not impact a learning experience at all. Just be patient for a minute. Roll with it. Life is messy.
My two have gotten far more out of online learning over the past few years using quality online courses then they ever would have in-person at our local middle school or high school. Why? They were able to have their academic needs met where they were at. Now, had they gone to an elite private BS, then their needs would likely have been met there, in-person. But my point is they have done just fine with online, and online has prepared them both for advanced work they could not have done during their high school years had they gone to the local public schools. D21’s first ever in-person-class-for-grades experience was fall 2019, when she took three college courses on two different college campuses. Straight-As. No problems whatsoever with an in-person format. Loves discussing everything under the sun with other students. She fit right in, and none of the college students even realized she was an 11th grader as opposed to an undergraduate. She was used to working with people from all her extracurricular activities. Etc. Ran out and joined clubs on campus even though she was not a fulltime student. Etc. Point is, online prepared her just fine for her next steps and then some.
Online learning can work well for college courses too. IF the courses are engaging, IF the teacher is attentive, IF all the students are committed to reaching out to one another virtually and setting up study groups, etc. Is it preferable to an in-person situation (provided the kids’ needs are being met with those in-person courses)? No. D21 LOVED her on-campus courses at the two colleges this past year. She hopes to be back on the campuses next year too. But if that is not an option due to COVID19, her education will not suffer because everything goes online. Her college courses did a good job with the transition this spring. Well…there was one professor who isn’t used to technology at all and took longer than the others to convert everything and communicate, but he eventually got the hang of it. I think by this fall, colleges will have all greatly improved the way they do things online, and students will get the unique individual college’s brand education.
Would everybody rather go back to the way things were, in-person? Yes, of course. It is rather nice to speak to someone right there in front of you as opposed to through a screen. But a screen is not that bad of an option if everything is done right. It can work, if done well. And I suspect colleges will figure it out and do it all very well come fall.
That’s a lot of “ifs”. My sons experience in the spring was not like this at all. I am hoping fall will be better because teachers will at least have time to prepare. In my son’s case one class was live with zoom lessons, and the other four were just posted power points, no recorded lectures but simply read the power point and teach yourself. One teacher did schedule one meeting with each student to go over the topic for the final paper. Other than that, he had no interaction with his profs once they went online - none at all. They seemed to have just given up once it went online.
“Online learning can work well for college courses too. IF the courses are engaging, IF the teacher is attentive, IF all the students are committed to reaching out to one another virtually and setting up study groups, etc.”
Teachers being engaging in PERSON is not a given - not even close - never mind online. My friends experience with a high tier LAC , where there are alot of undergrad professors who are tenured and been there for decades - is that many do not do well online. Their curriculum has been set for decades - and they may do it well in person, but it is not engaging online.
@wisteria100 – I think in general opening windows would help, but I’m no expert. I’d think colleges would want to tap their physics/engineering expertise to analyze how to better ventilate indoor spaces in ways that carry air out, but not directly past, students and faculty. I think staggering desks rather than rows might help.
I forgot to include gyms as another obvious large space that could be used to hold classes.
But, more importantly, I think it’s using different learning models altogether than can help reduce risk of spread – at least that’s my hope.
There are just some classes and majors that are not conducive to online teaching. My own daughter (3rd yr architecture major) struggled this spring as all of the college resources she’s accustomed to were shut down (3D printers, laser cutters, wood shop etc.). She made models on her own, but it was a painstaking process and it didn’t mirror what firms do.
Her music major roommate had a hella time getting through; I can’t imagine how learning online was hindered by artists, dancers, student teachers (and probably many other lab-related and other majors) .
Some classes just really need to be in person. (Think of community college trade programs as well. Anything hands-on.) That’s a big part of the equation for my two college-aged kids going forward. She’s full pay (ok; state school. . . but still . . ) I don’t think she’ll want to spend another semester going without the college resources as studio classes are the bulk of her work load. Makes no sense.
My dad was an art teacher and adjunct prof in the early 80s; and was phased out of several positions several years in a row due to funding cuts. I wonder about some of those same positions now.
truly hoping for a hybrid approach at least and not a full-shut down again.
Interesting aside from the article that choir or other venues where people are shouting are higher risk. I don’t exactly “shout” in the classroom, but I don’t need a microphone even in a fairly large room, so pretty good projection. And lecturing in a face mask would be onerous, as I said above somewhere.
I don’t know how it’s less problematic if most people are being infected in their own homes by someone who brings it home. Student who brings it back to dorm room infects roommate. Roommate infects boyfriend, who takes it back to his own room and infects his roommate. etc. etc.
The Chicago case mentioned in the article was pretty telling. One person, 16 infections, 3 dead. Somehow those are not reassuring, “oh, it’s nothing” stats.
@lloyddobler85 That model is concerning, especially because the rapid test has such a high false negative. It would be easy to miss a single infected student.
