Searching for reachy colleges with an intellectual atmosphere [WI resident, 4.0 GPA]

College Search & Lists
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I’m a junior in WI looking for colleges to apply to in the Fall, and I am both excited and trepidant about this college application process.

Stats:

  • GPA: 4.0 (unweighted)
  • SAT: 1520-1550 (based on the practice tests)
  • ACT: 33-34 (based on the PreACT)
  • Extracurriculars: none (!)
  • AP World (5), Statistics (5), Spanish (5), US History, French, Calculus AB, Lang, Lit, Physics 2 (I predict that I will earn 5s on those that I’m taking this year. Lang and Lit are being self-studied.)
  • Next year: Calculus BC, Biology, and a few classes (history, French, literature, math, based on what’s available) at the university.

I go to a public high school and am a middle-class Asian-American. (I speak Cantonese, too.) I am not sure what I wish to major in, but I think I will end up studying economics or econometrics or statistics or similar, though what I really am most interested in is literature. I don’t see that as particularly employable, unfortunately, which is why I will probably study something that has clearer job prospects. I find economics interesting, too, just not captivating. I might go on to graduate school or law school, or maybe even academia. I’m not sure!

I assume that I will be admitted directly to UW Madison (through the WI guarantee, and my GPA is high enough to put me in the top five percent), and Milwaukee is where we live, so that is another safe option. I think I can get into McGill, too, based on the published cut-offs. So I am mainly searching for targets and reaches.

  • Location: No region in particular, but a large-ish city with a large-ish international population would be nice. A warm area would be great. (My ‘safeties’ are all cold…)
  • Minimal, or at least avoidable, Greek life
  • Size: The idea of an intimate campus isn’t particularly appealing to me, and I think a bigger school might actually be nicer. But I think the size of the city is more of a factor for me than the size of the school itself.
  • Environment: I want to be in an intellectual, or at least no-nonsense, environment. I don’t know how that fits in with my musings about size, but the prospect of being expected to have discussions with half-engaged kids who gleefully use generative AI for their assignments, who can’t read critically or compute accurately, is painful to me. Most of the kids in my classes really are like this, even in AP-level classes. Rigor is hard to find, and I find that I enjoy myself most when the content is difficult. My first choice would be to have a bunch of motivated, thoughtful, brilliant students in my class, but, following that, my second choice would be to just have lecture classes. Four more years (or perhaps three) of forced, mediocre, lukewarm conversation where I’m just going through the motions really would make me sad. This is why I say that I am trepidant about the process. Avoiding this is the most important thing for me. But it is also why I am excited. I might find a place like that!
  • Cost: My family’s income is around $200k a year. I have not run net price calculators on any universities yet, but we will probably be able to afford around $60k a year out of pocket. I would hope to be able to get some sort of merit scholarship somewhere. I don’t know, though.

I haven’t searched much myself for colleges—there are so, so many, and it is difficult to find colleges ranked by the intellectuality of the student body—but have thought, just to give you an idea, about schools like Rutgers (which has lots of Asians), Tufts (which is supposedly very rigorous), and Boston University (I really like Boston). It seems to me that, at this point, asking for suggestions from people will be more useful than searching on Google, at least for starting to make a list. I am looking mainly for schools that’ll be reachy, because I find my list of safeties solid. I might be looking at all of this from a weird, misguided perspective. I appreciate any help.

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First thing that came to mind was U Chicago, but you’d have to run the numbers to see if it fits your budget.

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With respect to intellectualism, perhaps consider Reed, which, it seems worth noting, places highly in this site for its classroom experience:

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Talk to your parents about what they will contribute for your college costs, and have them run the net price calculator on the web site of each college of interest.

Note that economics in preparation for PhD study and in PhD study will be very heavy with math and statistics (as in, junior/senior level math and statistics courses that mostly math and statistics majors take).

PhD programs worth attending should be funded. However, going to academia is highly competitive, since there are far more PhD graduates each year than there are tenure-track faculty jobs. Many graduates go to less desirable non-tenure-track or adjunct jobs, or other research jobs which may be in industry if their PhD major is applicable and desired by industry (economics may be desired in the finance industry, for example).

Students of any major can go into law school. College GPA and LSAT score are the big factors in getting into law school, and more selective law schools tend to lead to better law job prospects. Law school is very expensive.

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Macalester, Brandeis, Rochester, Tufts, WUSTL, Pomona, Emory, Rice. For reach, Harvard, Yale, Briwn, Columbia, Penn. UMN may be more to your desires than Wisconsin at a low cost due to reciprocation. Occidental for a safe LAC that’s not cold.

Your test will be important. I hope you get the score you think but until you do, it’s hard to know.

And study lit - double major or minor or focus there if that’s your thing.

Edit - I missed ECs - none.

That will eliminate many top schools.

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The University of Wisconsin is a very good university. I will note that econometrics uses quite a bit of math (as a math major it had me spending a Saturday afternoon to make sure that my math was solid enough – and I liked it quite a bit), and Wisconsin is very highly ranked for mathematics.

I also think that your chances at McGill are very good. It of course fits the “intellectual” and “no-nonsense” vibes, has an “international population”, and is right in an interesting part of a very interesting city to spend four four years in. In four years there, you are likely to notice some differences between French-Canadian and English-Canadian culture (although you will meet people with roots in both cultures), and will meet students from other countries. It does fail on the “warm” part, although there is a significant underground city very near McGill (on the “right across the street” level in some places).

These are two very good universities. You can do very well with a degree from either of them (and I know people who have done exactly that). I do not think that mediocrity is going to bother you at either of these two schools.

Otherwise I wonder about what the Net Price Calculators will say about the likely costs of some of the top ranked universities. Given your excellent stats, you are at least competitive at pretty much any university. However, whether they fit your budget even at $60k/year, or whether they are worth the additional cost, or whether they are a good fit for you, can be difficult to predict.

I think that you or your parents should run the NPCs at a few highly ranked universities that seem appealing to you and see what they say.

With an in-state university as strong as Wisconsin, and plans to possibly get a graduate degree, there is often a question regarding whether a student should stay in-state for their bachelor’s degrees and save $$$ to spend for the graduate program.

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With these parameters and a combination of few ECs and lots of 5s in APs, I would look seriously at Oxford or Cambridge as a reach possibility. Oxford is a multidisciplinary PPE degree (still needs a 5 in Calc BC) whereas Cambridge is a very math heavy Econ degree. Very intellectual environment and within budget (a three year degree will be $150K-$180K total). But it’s a very different application compared to top US colleges.

Students who want a place at Oxford should ditch the flute practice and get swotting, the university’s head of admissions has said.

Mike Nicholson told the Times Educational Supplement he was looking for “excellent” people, not “second-rate historians” who play the flute.
…
Mr Nicholson said it did not matter if candidates had no friends or hobbies: offers of places at Oxford were based purely on an academic judgement.

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For a school with disproportionately brilliant students in proximity to several historic East Coast cities, look into Swarthmore.

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I think Swarthmore would be a very tough admit with zero ECs.

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Agree with many of the above suggestions, and am concerned for most of them about “zero ECs” – really, zero? no clubs? no music lessons, or jobs, or summer programs, or babysitting, etc? You might also want to sit down with a brag sheet or something – someone here will have a link – and start fleshing out what you can say about yourself. For the state schools already mentioned your stats will be sufficient, I’m guessing. For the kind of academic environment you seem to be hungering, you’re likely to find that there are many kids who look like you academically on paper (4.0, all the APs, high/even higher test scores) AND they’re doing an improbable number of things in their “spare” time.

The reachiest schools will be long shots for this reason (and realistically they are long shots for absolutely everyone). Those schools are also often the ones that do the best with need-based aid (and in many cases don’t offer any merit-based aid). There are other schools with higher acceptance rates that still have amazing faculty, small class sizes, and (especially in upper-level courses that tend to draw students majoring in those subjects) dedicated students. Many of these offer solid discounts off the list price for students with your stats. Some of them are skewed toward one gender or another, which can occasionally mean that you get more favorable odds (e.g. Harvey Mudd is a much tougher admit for a dude. Vassar is apparently tougher for women.)

Given your interests, you might want to focus on colleges that have fewer distribution requirements, where it’s easier to double major (Rochester and Oberlin come to mind).

And yes – run the numbers. Private schools like St. Olaf are offering attractive discounts to students with your profile and could probably get below your desired threshold (good to double-check w/ your parents though). Schools with much lower acceptance rates (including two of the three you mentioned) are likely going to be more costly.

One final thought – the higher-ed research funding environment is currently a political football and (without getting into politics) while we don’t know what this means for a while yet, universities with big research budgets are likely to be heavily affected. My gut tells me that you’re likelier to find the classroom atmosphere you’re seeking at a place like Reed/Bard/Grinnell/Macalester/Vassar anyway – but make sure you’re diversifying your list of options with this lens as well. (I also wouldn’t be surprised to see liberal arts colleges in general get more selective in the near-term as an indirect result of these national policy shifts.)

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Google common data set for each of the schools to find out typical merit.

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The OP should check, but I don’t think Canadian colleges focus on ECs so, if affordable, look into some of those (I see you have McGill on your list but you can add others).

Do keep in mind that ECs are not limited to activities in school – if you do anything in your community/church, if you have a part-time job, if you study music, etc. that counts as well.

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I think that with no ECs, many really reachy schools of the sort you’re looking for – highly intellectual atmosphere, great classroom experience – are going to be difficult to get into (even with your stellar academic record). So see if you can take a look at your record and highlight something – a job, travel experiences (esp. in academic or enrichment programs), volunteer work? Music or art, even if they’re scheduled classes in school? Independently pursued passions (hiking, creative writing, photography, etc.) Anything?

It’s also hard to reconcile your desire for an intensely intellectual environment and your interest in “all lecture classes.” No matter where you go, you’re not getting all lecture classes. At the biggest universities, there are plenty, but even then, as you get deeper into your major, you’ll end up in smaller classes and seminars. In a LAC, you’ll skip the big classes and jump into that more intimate learning environment more quickly. That’s why classroom experiences are typically more central to the LAC vibe, so it seems like a disconnect – you want a rigorous intellectual environment, but not the schools that are more likely to provide that right away. If you were open to smaller schools, I would second above recommendations for Grinnell, Swarthmore, Reed, St. Olaf, and Macalester and I would add (if no one else has – not sure) – Williams, Bowdoin, Hamilton, and Carleton.

However – some of those may be too rural for your taste, and all will be tough admits with no ECs.

I think U of Chicago would be a good choice, as would Rice, Emory, and William and Mary (warm weather!). But the lack of ECs would make those tough admits, too.

McGill (suggested above) is a great idea, as are Toronto, UBC, McMaster, and others. The advantages of Canadian universities include the fact that they are more aligned with the European model (focused far more on academics than clubs and the American college experience) and they do not consider ECs in the application process. So those might be a fit for you. So might some European universities (have you considered St. Andrews or Edinburgh?). The drawback is that the European model doesn’t really favor a broad liberal arts foundation, so if you don’t absolutely know what you want to study, you’ll have fewer opportunities to find out.

A couple of other reactions to your initial post –
First, your college classes will not be like your AP classes ( or, I should say, AP classes aren’t really like college classes). Rigor may be harder to find in HS, but it’s easy to find in college – any college – if you challenge yourself and get out of your comfort zone. Then again, in college – any college, no matter who attends or how hard it was to get in – you will at some point find yourself in a class with students who are not engaged.

Second, you shouldn’t be gunning for an academic career because you’re not sure what else you can do with an Econ degree. It’s extremely difficult to enter academia in a tenure-track job and will remain so for the foreseeable future. It’s even harder if you don’t absolutely love your discipline (you’re non-committal about economics). So recognize that you don’t know what you don’t know (which is fine!) and just focus on studying broadly and exploring new areas of study.

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Do you think this is more the case for Swarthmore than for the University of Chicago, which was suggested in an even earlier reply?

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One daughter was accepted to McGill something like 11 or 12 years ago. At the time they did not ask about ECs. My other daughter was accepted to several smaller universities in eastern Canada three years later (8 or 9 years ago) and none of them asked about ECs. I do not have any more recent information, nor information about schools further west.

There are quite a few very good universities in Canada. The price for international students can vary quite widely. In many cases the prices are higher for the more famous schools, probably because someone is willing to pay it. There are a few exceptions (such as prices at McGill for citizens of France, and the very good but very highly competitive Lester B. Pearson scholarship at the University of Toronto).

This is an important point. Definitely ECs do not need to have anything at all to do with your high school. A part time job, tutoring other students, playing a musical instrument, and volunteer work through a church are examples of potentially very good ECs. Looking after an elderly relative or younger siblings can also be a good EC. One daughter had a few friends for whom their main EC was competitive skating. Again this can be a good EC.

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You sound like a really good and intentional kid. The only thing I’d suggest you is to avoid patronizing other kids in your class who’re intellectually not as competitive or rigorous as you.
You will deal with all kind of people in your career, and almost everyone has something special about them. You will do exceptionally well if you could balance your academic pursuits with building relationships across the board.

Do research NYU Stern, CMU for economics.
You have the stats and attitude to get into any school of your liking. All the best.

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As for your ECs, you don’t have to do what everyone else does and spread yourself too thin. It’s OK if you don’t have any club leadership or non-profit to your name—almost everyone does that, and it will not make you stand out for any top school.
Instead, go deep into something you really like—even if academic, but has to be something outside the class. Do some research (don’t have to publish papers), and start building contacts with professors from your state school; explain them your interests and seek ideas; not everyone will respond, but keep trying.
Volunteer at your local food bank, or old-age homes—with a genuine sense of community service. Help your older neighbors with their chores. These are the things you can write about in your activities and FWIW, will help you discover yourself beyond academics, and help with your personal essays.

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Another schools to consider:
RPI - your school can nominate you for the Rensalear medal which is a $40,000 a year scholarship. It is very Academically rigorous

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Is this really true? How do you spend your time when you aren’t in school or studying? You don’t have family responsibilities or a job or spend time self studying subjects/other interests? If you really have no ECs, I wouldn’t recommend applying to any highly rejective colleges, unless you get involved with some ECs ASAP. The only reasons I can think of that could result in an acceptance (at a reach school) for an applicant who had no ECs is illness/disease/injury.

At Wisconsin there will be plenty of students serious about their studies. McGill is a great choice. Other target/maybe low reach schools you might consider (ECs necessary) would be Case Western, U Rochester, William and Mary. Solid targets RIT, WPI, Brandeis.

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I agree with many of the school suggestions above.

Regarding the problem of the missing ECs, you have 2 options:

  1. apply only to schools that won’t care
  2. learn to be comfortable with talking a little nonsense

Schools that won’t care include most foreign schools, all but the very top public universities in the US, and private colleges and universities where your stats are enough above their 25-75 range that they will want you anyway.

In terms of nonsense tolerance there exists a bell curve with scrupulosity on one end and naked self-promotion on the other. My best guess is that you exist on the scrupulous skinny tail. If my instincts about this are correct, I suggest you practice the art of getting less uncomfortable with a bit of bu11$h!+ing. It is a valuable life skill, and I promise you that if you are constitutionally scrupulous, you will be in no danger of going too far in the other direction.

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