<p>It’s normal, but there are limits, as others have noted.</p>
<p>I have a daughter with an exceptionally strong will. When she was in third grade I went to a teacher conference and as the teacher was telling me how great my D was my jaw dropped. I actually asked her, you mean First Name, Last Name, are you sure? She laughed. Said it was common for high performing kids to cope at school and just let it fly at home.</p>
<p>Fast forward to the late teens. I finally told her, look, if you don’t want to talk to me that’s fine. I won’t talk to you either. But if you are going to talk to me, I expect a certain amount of politeness.</p>
<p>Fast forward to age 20. We talk all the time, despite the 3,000 miles distance. I believe she respects and loves me and is glad I am her mom. Rough road to get here though. </p>
<p>But, it’s much better to have a rude high performing kid than a polite kid who lacks friends or academic motivation. IMO. Better for them and their life happiness, which is always my first priority over some abstract concept such as parental authority etc. As long as the rudeness is within limits, as long as it is tolerable, as long as you set the limits very clearly, in my experience they grow out of it.</p>
<p>A good book for your wife might be “You’re Wearing That?” by Deborah Tannen. It’s about the easily misinterpreted conversations between mothers and daughters and how to change the tone. There’s another one about talking to family members when everybody’s a grownup but I can’t recall the title. “You’re Wearing That?” came out last year and should still be available.</p>
<p>I agree that Dad needs to honor his wife by insisting that she not be insulted by D. He can also take on D, out of mom’s presence, about the issues which he and Mom have agreed are important. Some of the issues in our family which drive me nuts are much more easily handled by H. We confer, I leave, he brings it up and reachs accord. S is not fooled, but he copes much better, and I am far more peaceful. It sounds like the script needs rewriting, but perhaps recasting the parts will help, too. Good luck!</p>
<p>We have a somewhat different dynamic in our house. D1 is the most even-tempered person I’ve ever met and just exudes empathy. Never had a mood from her, and I can sincerely not recall ever seeing her treat anyone discourteously and she’s now over 18. Which is not to say that she’s a pushover, she’s not, but this is her personality. D2 is my clone. She was born sarcastic, impatient and sometimes nasty. She always travelled well in terms of her public face (thank God), to the point that she’s so engaging that it’s like raising a celebrity. At home is another story. She brings the worst of herself to us and sometimes that makes me crazed. LIke this weekend. Anyway, my husband is much like D1 in that he is incredibly gentle and soft-spoken and easily hurt. D2 chews him up and spits him out on a regular basis and the poor soul just can’t defend himself. She is too smart, too sharp and too quick. It breaks my heart. THis weekend she was in a bad mood and tormented her dad for three straight days until I had had enough. I hate getting into it with her, but someone needs to defend him. I suspect that she and I are going to engage in this power struggle until she leaves for college, but as I told her on Monday, she’s not going to win here and she might as well behave as a civilized human being. I’m still waiting.</p>
<p>Well, my mother always said my chickens would come home to roost. Geez, I hate farm analogies.</p>
<p>My D is so dang sweet when she is not with me or her fencing coach (figures of authority?). She feels like she must have power over those figures in control. It is almost like a wolf pack - she’s always forcing her way to the top - she MUST be the Alpha dog. I suspect Alumother and I got our D’s at the same shop! haha</p>
<p>Our question, as her parents, is: why kind of man will she marry? There are only two with whom she could possibly co-exist - the meekest, mildest, most submissive man on the planet (whom she would then eat or spit out and cast aside), or the worst SOB going who will seek to control and contain her - that can’t last. </p>
<p>Well, just getting ready to worry about the next decade.</p>
<p>I’m a father, not a mother. But I am certainly familiar with the dynamic you describe. At 21, my daughter is just learning how to get along with her mother again. Nothing horrible, but they each really rubbed the other the wrong way much of the time, fairly constant conflict for the past 7 years or so. </p>
<p>And, by the way, not all of this was the daughter’s fault. My wife was right most of the time, but not always, and she had a tendency to escalate conflicts, to think the worst of her child, and to express that instantly. Also, while I agree that it’s important for the father to back up the mother, and to demand civility from the child, I will admit to falling off the tightrope now and then. In all directions: being upset with (and undermining) my wife, and being furious at my daughter.</p>
<p>Other families clearly have the same problem. I know several young women who are a joy to deal with – polite, interesting, open – and who somehow have long-running guerilla warfare going on with their mothers, largely invisible to the rest of the world. </p>
<p>Time and independence generally do the trick of recreating a good relationship. When I was growing up, I was always aware of how close and loving the relationship between my mother and maternal grandmother was. Years later, I learned that they barely spoke to each other when my mother was 15-20. My mother had even moved out of the house and lived with other relatives for a while!</p>
<p>High performing kids who behave and then lose it at home? Oh yes…When DS was in kindergarten every day when I would pick him up he would smack me on the leg. His teacher was always astounded because he was such a great kid in class. He was four (an early kindergartener) and I think by the time he saw me he was just ready to lose it. After a week of a sore leg I started bringing a juice box. Hand him the juice box quick to distract him from smacking me.
The same kid can’t clean his own room but if he comes to your house he will gladly help with the dishes and entertain you with amusing anecdotes while he is doing them.<br>
Grrr…
The good news is fast forward 15 years later he is actually becoming nice to his own family. During the tough part the basic rule was at least be polite. Of course, you could always be surly in your own room. I will say we didn’t enforce a lot of prescribed family time. Angst ridden teenager? Great, you have your own room–go enjoy it. :)</p>
<p>Fencersmom, yes. Acme Alpha Dog Daughters or AADD for short. Maybe it’s true that this conflict is heightened when the daughter is the type born to be in charge. My D was never happier then surrounded by 8 other little girls, playing some complex game, with Olympic Barbies jumping into swimming pools and other Barbies hanging tied up from the TV. Actually that was two separate games.</p>
<p>Anyway, fast forward, she is president of a campus organization and in her element. She was just dying to be the boss from the moment she was born and her inability to take charge as a baby left her frustrated, her inability to be the full boss of me as a teenager left her crabby, and her pronounced ability to run things as a 20-year old has her quite happy, thank you very much mom for not throwing me out the window…</p>
<p>Nah. She didn’t really say that. But I can dream.</p>
<p>"My D was never happier then surrounded by 8 other little girls, playing some complex game, with Olympic Barbies jumping into swimming pools and other Barbies hanging tied up from the TV. "</p>
<p>Alumother, I’m taking great comfort in knowing that other kids did things like that. Mine was born to be in charge, too and has almost always been, so collaborating with me is totally foreign. She also tied up her dolls and hung them from the bannister of our floating staircase. What IS that about?</p>
<p>D explained to me later that Barbie had to be tied up so she could be rescued. The desire to rescue seems to go hand-in-hand with the desire to boss around, which I think is good. D explained to me at the age of 3 that she wanted to be Peter Pan for Halloween because Wendy didn’t get to rescue anyone. So I was Wendy in my nightgown and her little baby brother was Michael. She was Peter Pan.</p>
<p>Other Halloween costumes included, Wonder Woman, Diana the Huntress, a leprechaun, the Queen of the Night, a black panther, and, as a teenager, Danger - i.e. wrapped herself in Caution tape. See a theme? One year she was a princess. That phase was quite short-lived.</p>
<p>So Dad II, tell your wife that if she can refrain from throwing your D out the window, as an adult, your D is likely to become the boss of large numbers of people and take very good care of you. Or, alternatively, be the mother of many children thereby providing you with many well-raised grandchildren</p>
This is the sort of thing that drove my kids around the bend, I stopped telling them it was cold outside in about 3rd grade. I’ve come to the conclusion their thermostats are set differently.</p>
<p>I know a number of families were the daughters and Moms are at loggerheads a lot and sadly some where the difficult relationship continues into adulthood. I expect there’s room for improvement on both sides. Reading books might help, or a family meeting, or a heart to heart talk with both your daughter and wife separately and then perhaps together. Good luck!</p>
<p>Gee, at DS2’s school, they have a project in Alg II called “Barbie Bungee Jumping.” Involves rubber bands and dropping her off a balcony at school to see how close she can get to the floor without hitting. They then had to analyze the math. Sounds like a perfect project for angsty teens…Then again, this math teacher had five or six kids, so I am sure she is familiar with all kinds of ways to deal with them!</p>
<p>Dad II,
DS1 and I have the most wonderful relationship. Hardly ever get angry at one another, he’s respectful, etc. DS2: He’s like me. I love him to death, he is very respectful, but when he gets grouchy, he takes it out on me. And, in analyzing this dynamic lately, I take out my anger at other things on him, too. It’s not just mother-daughter relationships, though I hear from my friends with Ds that this is not an unusual phase.</p>
<p>I’m really thanking my lucky stars as I read this. My D and I get along great, but I have zero tolerance for any disrepect of me on her part. It is nipped in the bud very quickly. My mother was that way with me and we have remained best friends throughout my life. Just when do kids start getting away with being rude to their parents and why aren’t there consequences so quickly that they learn it is not best route to take? When daughters treat their Dads poorly and get away with it, then I’ll guarantee there will be problems with boyfriends and husbands. I think there may be some confusion about what is common and what is normal. I would get a family therapist involved and come up with a way of changing this pattern. I hope that was a joke about an older teen getting upset about being asked to put on something warm - that is middle or elementary school behavior and, as a young adult, someone reacting like that just needs to get over themselves - or maybe stay home for a few days and think about it.</p>
<p>My Ds and I would have “tiffs” - some crankiness, but it never lasted, we would text or shake hands or whatever and start over</p>
<p>I discovered one D, my youngest- is the moodiest person in the morning you have ever met</p>
<p>So, I have learned to ignore her snippiness, so it doesn’t escalate, if I just go about my business, not ask too many questions, etc., and save my enquiries until later, it makes a huge difference</p>
<p>my other D was very much a sweetheart in the morning, but crankier after school</p>
<p>I agree (especially on the ‘don’t treat your Mother like that’) or can relate to almost all of what has been offered here, but I do have this to offer.</p>
<p>My DDs are just like their Dad. Happy as clams as long as things are going their way. If I step in with any of them, I can assume I will get in a dust-up to some degree. (Even the boyfriends smile when I point this out…) You and the Mom wanted a strong-willed, independent woman. Be careful what you wish for…
Talk amongst yourselves…</p>
<p>Being strong willed and independent has nothing to do with rudeness. The best leaders are never rude. In fact, their understanding of how to motivate people rather than boss them around with nastiness or intimidation is what makes them leaders that inspire loyalty & respect. Those leaders will also cultivate an atmosphere where subordinates will feel comfortable raising troublesome issues so problems can be nipped in the bud, not left to fester.</p>
<p>Do your D a big favor and impress on her that she must deal respectfully & cordially with both those above her and those below her.</p>
<p>I used to tell my daughter that since she clearly wanted power, she needed to learn how not to abuse it.</p>
<p>However, what one adult will find to be “disrespect”, another adult may find to be “healthy engagement with authority”. As long as it’s your kid, and you do not find that your child-rearing practice is causing your child issues in terms of their ability to function well in the world, the good news is that you can make your choice for yourself and your kid.</p>
<p>BTW, although I tolerated and still do a lot of what others might find to be “disrespect”, my daughter in the world is noticeably polite and respectful to adults and often pointed out for her poise. So go figure.</p>
<p>I agree Sticker - children and their parents may not agree about a lot of things, but there is no excuse for rudeness and it just shouldn’t be tolerated. It has nothing to do with being strong willed or independent. I was always very independent, but in the very, very few times I was rude to either of my parents, there were consequences. They were never rude to me and I took that cue and was not rude to them. There was nothing I ever wanted more than the respect of my parents and being rude didn’t further that goal. I am not rude to my daughter so when she finds herself going down that road - the rolling of the eyes, the mumbling under her breath, she very quickly finds out that if things had a chance of going her way, that chance disappeared. She tells me all the time that she cannot believe how rude her friends are to their parents. When I ask her why they are rude, she either tells me that they are modeling the parents’ behavior or that it works. There is always a payoff - either they are modeling behavior or being manipulative.</p>
<p>I would love to be able to say that my daughter always treats me with the respect I deserve. However, I would be lying. On the other hand, she loves me fiercely, with every bone in her body, and I know that for a fact. Our relationship has been one of cling to Mom/push Mom away/cling to Mom even harder/push her away even harder. She has always been extremely well thought of by anyone who does not live behind our front door. She would never be disrespectful or rude to me in public. Is the behind the scenes rudeness acceptable? Maybe not to some. For us, though, it is what it is. I consider it her way to unload the cr*p life brings, and it seems to help her keep in balance. Everything is Mom’s fault … and Mom reminds her of what is actually D’s responsibility … which makes D more upset … and 'round & 'round we go. I consider it part of my job. The rewards that our struggles are yielding in terms of a wonderful young woman coming into her own are well worth the arguments & tears.</p>
<p>“But, it’s much better to have a rude high performing kid than a polite kid who lacks friends or academic motivation. IMO. Better for them and their life happiness, which is always my first priority over some abstract concept such as parental authority etc.”</p>
<p>Ditto, again assuming it’s just rude with me and the “rude” is at a level tolerable to me (an eye roll here and there; clever sarcasm…she says she gets it from me). </p>
<p>That’s what I reminded myself of over that 2 or 3 years. Happily we are mostly past that. Similarly the intense animosity toward younger brother has apparently resolved! I think the two my have been related.</p>