Senior Awards Rants

Parents Forum
481

<p>“You realize, of course, that there are many people who would feel that the proposal you make in quote number 2 is inherently unfair. That if a student is the best qualified, they should be able to win every single scholarship based on merit alone. That’s why it’s not all that easy to determine what is fair.”</p>

<p>I do see your point, however, let’s face it, there are sure to be several students that “qualify” for the scholarship. I mean there is your neighbor, you nephew, your hairdresser’s daughter, your babysitter…so many to pick from. Why not spread the wealth out?</p>

<p>In all seriousness, though, if everyone sees the blatant nepotism, is it such a stretch to think about trying to rectify it? Maybe my solution isn’t perfect but there are many ways that the process could be improved. You can’t tell me that the guidance counselors and school administration aren’t squirming about some for the glaring instances of unethical behavior in the community when it comes to the awarding of these local scholarships.</p>

<p>Another side of the issue that annoys me is the collecting of money for these (sometimes) bogus awards. These organizations hold golf tournaments, road races, etc. where people, in good faith, donate time and money to the cause. We do so on the assumption that our money is being used to sponsor a scholarship that will be awarded with integrity and objectivity and will give equal opportunity to all applicants.</p>

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<p>

Of course it is. It is also perfectly acceptable for others to counter-rant, and discover that not everyone will commiserate with you. Every rant about how my child deserved this or that award is also a rant that some other child is an undeserving loser who only got the award through the chicanery of some adult in the process.</p>

483

<p>So, here’s why I feel differently about high school awards. At the high school level, there is still a relationship between the teachers and students. One can insist that the teachers are professionals and that there’s no more relation between teachers and students than there is between your child and your child’s pediatrician, for example. But the fact is that they are all human beings, and they see each other 5 days a week for about 38 weeks. The teachers make demands on the students, which the students are <em>supposed</em> to fulfill. I think this creates a relationship of a sort.</p>

<p>In a lot of high-pressure, high-achieving districts, the students work late hours to meet the teachers’ expectations. I have read of this at other schools, and I know that often, when I was on the computer at 1:30 am, QMP’s classmates were also on the computer (back when we had only one internet connection, and I had to wait until QMP had gone to bed). No doubt they wasted a bit of time in IM’ing and Facebook-ing, but in a lot of schools, hard courses + extracurriculars with significant time demands = about 5 hours of sleep a night, on a frequent basis. </p>

<p>Yep, I heard about this from the older parents, and QMP started high school with me thinking, “I would never permit this!” Yet I did. (<em>Expects to be dumped on</em>) It didn’t start freshman year, but the demands built up gradually to that point by senior year. </p>

<p>If your kid’s high school is like this, you might know what I mean. If it’s not, you are really, really lucky! If it is, but you prevented your child from being drawn into ridiculous work levels, my hat’s off to you.</p>

<p>(continued)</p>

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<p>I want to add that I think that this thread is a HEALTHY debate. It may come off as whining to some and yes, it started as a place to vent about hurt feelings. That’s okay, isn’t it? But it has evolved into a place to come up with potential ideas about trying to improve a flawed system. How can that be a bad thing?</p>

<p>I, for one, am venting here so that I don’t do so elsewhere. My D has a very good attitude about the whole thing and sees the absurdity as funny. We laughed about it a little and were happy for the recipients that we know are legit and then we moved on. We’re not dwelling on it. I do think this thread is a good thing.</p>

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<p>

I see no problem at all with your proposal. Sounds “fair” to me. I’m just pointing out that there are bound to be parents howling about it. That’s why I say the chances of getting “everyone” to agree on what is “fair” are pretty slim.</p>

<p>I suspect if “everyone” truly saw the nepotism, at least somebody would actually try to do something to rectify it. But we all see things through our own binoculars.</p>

486

<p>So to continue–I do not think that every rant about one’s S or D’s lack of recognition is a complaint that the award process was unfair, nor is it a need for validation of accomplishments or potential. I will explain why in the next two posts.</p>

<p>Suppose that a student works very hard to meet the requirements imposed by the teacher. If the teacher is really good, then there is a return in learning that is commensurate with the effort put in. This is a fair deal, leaving awards out of the picture entirely. </p>

<p>However, depending on the teacher, there may be one assignment or many assignments that take time all out of proportion to what is learned. These fall into two categories, in my opinion:
a) Practice, needed by some. My first-year calculus prof used to say that once you understood an integration technique, you still had to “train your hand” to do it. Students need practice to different extents, to accomplish this. So for a good student, some of the time will be consumed in “training” exercises, which are really needed by many others in the class, but not by that student himself/herself. I feel that it’s part of the social contract of the school for good students to accept the time-overhead, because of the benefit to others in the class.
b) Waste of time for everyone. Your family is lucky if there are none of these assignments at the local HS.</p>

<p>I think that boys might be somewhat more inclined than girls (<em>stereotype warning</em>) to blow off both categories a) and b). Another type of student might do the work in a), but not b). But some good students will also do the work in b), because it is a sign of respect for the teacher to meet the teacher’s requirements (even when one does not respect the particular requirements).</p>

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<p>I think I’ve said my piece here, so I’ll summarize my point of view and let others carry on.</p>

<ol>
<li>There are certainly cases where awards are given in a blatantly unfair manner. In the case that it actually matters financially or in some other tangible way, people should fight this.</li>
<li>I believe that these instances of truly evident injustice are fairly rare. I believe it is even more rare for people to agree on instances of evident,blatant injustice, because, </li>
<li>I believe it is inherently difficult for people to agree on what is objectively fair. Everyone sees things through their own biases. Everyone, including me.</li>
</ol>

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<p>Now, the question is: What response does the student (qua human being) get from the teacher (qua human being)? Just my opinion, but if there are signs along the way that the effort is appreciated, awards are unnecessary. If there is a return in learning that is commensurate with the effort, awards are unnecessary. </p>

<p>But if a student has put in long hours meeting teachers’ requirements (under scenarios a and b above), and there’s not a sign of recognition of the effort other than numbers on pieces of paper (without comments)–particularly for a <em>top</em> student . . . well, it just doesn’t fit my idea of the social contract. In the adult world, given any other option, I wouldn’t work for a boss, under those conditions.</p>

<p>This says nothing negative about the students who did win. Generally speaking, we were happy for them, at our HS. I do think there are clear fairness issues, raised by some of the posters above, at some of the high schools. What I am saying here is not about fairness, and it is not about validation. It’s a question of acknowledgment. “Thank you for doing that project” would serve as well–if it were ever said.</p>

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<p>"I see no problem at all with your proposal. Sounds “fair” to me. I’m just pointing out that there are bound to be parents howling about it. That’s why I say the chances of getting “everyone” to agree on what is “fair” are pretty slim.</p>

<p>I suspect if “everyone” truly saw the nepotism, at least somebody would actually try to do something to rectify it. But we all see things through our own binoculars."</p>

<p>Oh, Bovertine, don’t leave the thread! I like your posts.</p>

<p>I suspect that the parents that would be unhappy with my plan would be the ones that have the connected kids who tend to win every award out there. I’m sure that the defendants in criminal cases would also love it if their best friends could make up the jury pool, but that would be “unfair”. Wouldn’t it? (It’s an anaolgy, I’m not saying that parents of award recipients are criminals. Not all of them, anyway :))</p>

<p>Mind you, I am talking about the local scholarships with mostly subjective criteria, not the school awarded academic/ athletic ones.</p>

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<p>

I’m not leaving because I’m upset or anything. I just think I’m repeating myself so I think I’ll just read for a while. But if I see something that strikes a nerve with me, I might not be able to control myself.:)</p>

491

<p>

Well, that’s only sort of true. The kid who received the award may be a perfectly nice kid with many fine qualities, and may himself have done nothing wrong in any way. Indeed, he might very well be next in line for the award if it were fairly conferred, and he may “deserve” it except for the existence of another kid who deserves it more.</p>

492

<p>“If a thread is titled as a “Rant,” then I think it’s perfectly acceptable for people to rant on the thread!”</p>

<p>I agree. And I bet the folks reading the thread that are somehow involved in arranging future award ceremonies appreciate seeing perspective from the family side. </p>

<p>I definitely agree with the advise to not burden the children with concerns of unfairness. Being able to rant here would help with that.</p>

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<p>QuantMech – I really don’t understand what you are getting at. There is generally only one award to be given to a broad category of students. For example, there may be 300 seniors taking math, at different levels and with different teachers. Since its math, the grading is pretty objective and its easy to know what level or track has been reached. But the math “award” can only be given to one student. If that award goes to some kid you never heard of - because the kid is on a different math track, having started with algebra in 9th grade and only reaching trig/pre-calc by senior year – that does not mean that the teacher has failed to acknowledge the contributions of the kid who has stayed up late at night to keep up with the insane homework requirements in AP Calc. It might just be that the other kid deserves recognition, too. It’s not like high school operates in a vacuum where only the high-end AP/Honors track exists and all of the kids in the other classes don’t count. And the effort you see in your house when your kid is up at 2 am doing homework is not necessarily what the teachers are looking at when they are giving out awards - - maybe they are more concerned with the attitude the kid displays in class every day, the degree to which that student participates and encourages others. </p>

<p>There just seems to be a sense of tunnel vision in a lot of these posts - the view that if S doesn’t win X award, then S has been shunned – but maybe there is a field of 150 potential award winners, and the awards committee narrowed it down to students, A, D, P, and S… and then they took a vote and it ended up being A. S had some votes, but not as many as A. This isn’t a case of S being cheated or life being unfair … this is simply a case of the award going to A. </p>

<p>I don’t see how anyone could possibly be saying that someone has been shunned or overlooked simply because they didn’t win an award. If it were something that a LOT of people get that is also considered kind of automatic based on set criteria – I could see the frustration. That is – if every kid with a certain GPA gets Dean’s List – but your kid has that GPA and doesn’t get Dean’s List … well, maybe then things are unfair. Maybe its a mistake and they forgot to print your kid’s name on the list – or maybe there is some obscure rule that kept your kid off. </p>

<p>I think your observations about the Nobel Prize are more on point. No one is “entitled” to a Nobel, because the whole system by which those prizes are awarded is really arbitrary, and there isn’t even a time frame that limits who might be considered. It’s crazy to view “someone else got the award” as the same as “they deliberately shunned me/my kid”.</p>

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<p>To calmom: Well, maybe my objection really belongs in a different rant forum. Locally, I would have liked to see more acknowledgment of the effort that students are putting out (aside from just the numerical scores assigned for work, without comment). This wouldn’t have to be exclusive. It only ties in with the senior awards, to the extent that these are pretty much the last chance for acknowledgment to occur. </p>

<p>I think the same goes for awards from coaches, as for subject-matter awards, since in both cases the adults know the students and make demands on them. Scholarships from outside groups are a different issue, in my view. </p>

<p>Genuine feedback as the student goes along is more valuable than an award at the end. But whether that occurs or not depends on the gifts of the teacher, and also on the prevailing culture in the school. One of the posters above mentioned an “anti-academic subtext” in their school–we experienced that, too, in a lot of cases. Your family may be more fortunate.</p>

<p>As far as encouraging other students, I support that enthusiastically and I also support recognizing it! QMP and friends did that, and sometimes with great patience. As far as class participation goes: It’s good, but I’m a little less enthusiastic about the local implementations. One of QMP’s older friends fell asleep in a class one day, and lost the “participation” points for the entire quarter. But maybe that had something to do with his staying up until 2 am, working.</p>

<p>Aside from the question of whether a scientist might be “entitled” to the Nobel Prize, there are some major differences–other than the obvious ones concerning the level and significance of the award. The Nobel Committee is not imposing any obligations on anyone. Very few scientists have any type of relationship with members of the Nobel Committee. They may not even know any of the Committee members. There’s no expectation of any acknowledgment of hard work.</p>

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<p>Quick addendum: I still feel bad for one of the co-valedictorians at QMP’s school (not QMP) who received only the recognition that the school was in a sense “forced” to give him, based on overall rank, AP Scholar category, state recognition, and National Merit. Very active in the school. I recall him as an extremely enthusiastic and pleasant middle-school student, when most of the group was in a cynical phase.</p>

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<p>

But you are failing to see the teacher’s point of view. The teacher has 30 kids in the classroom, 29 of whom are alert, paying attention, and responsive – and one who has gone to sleep. The teacher doesn’t know if the kid was up studying the night before, or up partying – or is just signaling his boredom in a very rude way. </p>

<p>And what about those 29 kids who stayed awake? Are they to be faulted because they are more efficient in their study habits? In terms of points for because they are the “best” at something – is it possible that some kids simply don’t have to study as hard as others, precisely because they are “better” at the subject. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Honestly, I wasn’t paying attention. </p>

<p>I do know one thing: neither of my kids was ever trying to guide their academic life by teacher-pleasing. My son had good grades but had a tendency to tick off some teachers by challenging them or debating issues with them that they didn’t want to debate. My d. was a very top student, but always deviating from the standard path - for example, rearranging her course schedule and sequence so that she could do a foreign exchange. So basically, I had one kid who was very likely to be the one falling asleep in the back of the classroom… and another kid who didn’t really fit the mold. </p>

<p>As a parent, I know my kids well enough to see not only the qualities that make them wonderful, but also the qualities that are not-so-wonderful. Frankly, my son can do and say things that really tick a lot of other people off. He’s smart, he’s funny, he’s capable, he’s responsible… but he’s not “nice”. My daughter is a lot “nicer” - and has all the smart-funny-capable-responsible qualities… but she’s also very assertive and goal oriented, with some very lofty goals. Some people might perceive her as pushy or arrogant. </p>

<p>Also – and I think this is important – at least in the public high school, there are a lot of teachers who do not have particularly impressive educational credentials. They went to school at mid-level public colleges and have a year or so post-grad education at a teacher’s college. I mean-- most didn’t go to prestige universities or become doctors or lawyers or Ph.D’s – if they did, they wouldn’t be teaching high school. (There are a few exceptions, fortunately – and they really do enrich the kid’s experiences- but they are not the norm in public school settings). So my point is – there is a lot of room for resentment to form. Even if a kid is very considerate and generous, a teacher who worked their way through Podunk U. may perceive the kid going off to an Ivy as being spoiled and over-privileged. The perception may be wrong, but its people who have less tend to perceive people who have more. So parents with the attitude that seems to be expressed in this thread (kid “deserves” award because kid has top GPA, is going off to prestige college, and has X,Y,Z accomplishments) – may really be tone deaf in respect to the awards system. </p>

<p>I honestly think that most of these high school awards go to kids who have really great interpersonal skills, or to kids who are the offspring of parents with great people skills. I don’t care if they call it the English book award or the Math Scholar award or whatever – I still see it as the Mr. & Miss Congeniality Award. </p>

<p>(I don’t know about private schools, since my kids attended public elementary schools and high schools. My impression about private schools would be that a very good way for a parent to ensure a nice award for their kid would be for that parent to write a very big check to the school’s improvement fund… but I may be way off in that perception. Maybe their kid gets nothing but he parent gets to have an alcove named after them.)</p>

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<p>It seemed to be a fairly common occurrence that students fell asleep in class at QMP’s school, at least from what I heard. Several students who qualified for the AIME slept through it each year, in the examination room. I heard about another student who fell asleep in the middle of a final exam at the school. </p>

<p>Granted, some students are more efficient than others–but of those who were working very late, everyone QMP knew was the AP/NMF/genuinely smart type, including one or two really exceptional people. </p>

<p>I cannot recall any of my classmates ever falling asleep in a class, back when I was in high school. I am all for considering the teacher’s point of view. But if students were nodding off in my class, I’d wonder what was wrong. I think I’d ask.</p>

<p>I also think that it would take a courageous parent to bring this issue up at a parent-teacher conference.</p>

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<p>At our HS, the “best of” departmental awards (medallions) go to students with quantifiable ability. In math, there is a a formula based on math competitions, attendance at math club, and so forth. Each part counts for a certain percentage so the teacher determines who won and it’s not a popularity contest.</p>

<p>In History and English, it’s based on an exam (English is an exam as well as an oral poetry interpretation component). Very scientific and fair. </p>

<p>I have not heard any complaints about this system.</p>

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<p>Calmom: the scenario you paint is precisely why there’s a problem. Voting as a means of determining an award winner means there’s a presumption that merit for the award could or should be a matter of opinion or preference (eg. a popularity contest). Why should there even be the need to vote? If you have objective criteria, then the decision-making becomes somewhat automatic because it’s highly unlikely any two candidates will have exactly the same credentials.</p>

<p>Let’s say it’s a science award. Well, first we establish that the kid shall have taken x total number of science classes, and y number at a certain level. Second, we can establish that the child must not have earned less than x grade in any of those classes. Third, we might add a requirement such as participation in science-related school activities like Chemistry Olympics. We might allow for an exception to these criteria in very specific cases that we outline clearly, such as if the student discovers the cure for cancer or wins a pretigious national science competition. For tie-breaking, if it’s still necessary, then perhaps we look beyond letter grades to numerical averages in those science classes, or how high the student placed in those Olympiads or quiz bowls. And if we don’t want the awards limited to the tippy-top kids, then we establish appropriate criteria for the students in regular or special education level classes. No qualification will offer a perfect metric, but this is better than just picking your favorite kid because you like him.</p>

<p>Some of you seem pretty set on rewarding displayed interest. You like to cite the example of the kid with the higher GPA but who lacks passion for the subject. I think honoring passion is as problematic as rewarding effort. How can you really know for sure how interested someone is? Disinterest might be easier to assess, but comparing interest levels among strong students is tougher. What a teacher interprets as strong interest could be deliberate flattery or simply an outgoing personality. And frankly, if that person does the work and does it exceedingly well, why does it matter how interested he is? If the outcome is stellar, who cares if the person enjoyed doing the work so long as he did it?</p>

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<p>^If you love the subject, you shouldn’t care if you get an award in it or not. If you love, say, computer science, but maybe you’re not the BEST in the school, maybe it’s even slightly difficult for you, but as you get better, problem-solving & coding come easier. So you don’t win the CS award…big deal. You still decide to major in it in college and perhaps the kid who won the award doesn’t. He’s just naturally good at it. That’s life.</p>

<p>Two of my boys won the Physics medallion. Two won the Latin medallion, come to think of it. None of them went on to MAJOR in physics or Latin (or any language) in college. It has crossed my mind that there existed another student, perhaps, who would have benefited by winning the physics award, or the Latin. Maybe it would have helped his/her scholarship chances. I can’t help that.</p>