<p>There is no simple line of demarcation, though, between the stage at which a student has the right to make these kinds of decisions on their on and the parent having the right to simply say no. The argument of “I’ll be in college in a few months” is no more worthy than “well, you’re not in college yet”. There are loads of students who make very mature and responsible decisions as H.S. seniors and many college students who run amok once outside of the watchful vigilance of their parents. Often times the only difference between a H.S. senior and a college student is what the parent is in the position to know. Similarly, the old canard of “when you are able to support yourself, you can make the decision” is counter-productive. In today’s society and educational system, most students are not in a position to support themselves until many years after we should expect them to be able to exercise adult judgement and after they should have the freedom to do so. While on one hand, parents should not be expected to finance bad decisions (like paying for the townhouse at the ski resort), we should not use our kids prolonged financial dependence on us as a tool to coerce compliance with our judgement but which in reality serves only to impede their development as adults.</p>
<p>It’s not an easy line to draw and there is no one good answer that fits each parent/child relationship. I am sure that we permitted our daughter to participate in activities or engage in certain freedoms at ages that caused other parents to be aghast. But we did so based on the nature of our relationship with our daughter and our knowledge of her level of maturity and ability to exercise good judgement. Where we did draw the line, however, was where we concluded that her basic health and safety would be at an unacceptable level of risk. Kids can’t grow unless they are given opportunities to have successes in challenging situations and to make mistakes by which they learn, but I think it’s a parent’s job to provide those opportunities in a safe environment. </p>
<p>So, would I have allowed her as a senior to go on a weekend ski trip with a bunch of students I really didn’t know and without an adult in attendance, nope. But I did allow her as an 18 yr old college freshman to spend a week in Cancun, on her nickel, with a 20 yr old female friend, who had vacationed with us in Mexico the year before, at a resort we were familiar with. May sound nuts to some, and I did have my moments of trepidation, but I was confident not only that she would adhere to some important ground rules we had set down but also that she would exercise sound judgement based on a demonstrated track record of doing so in a variety of circumstances over the years.</p>
<p>Thank you all for all of your responses. We told him no and we are dealing with the wrath that is following that decision. All of these kids come from families who ski so I am not as concerned as some about the actually skiing, if they actually get on the mountain. I do think there will be drinking, despite his protestations, and skiing and drinking, even the next day, do not mix well. I am also very concerned about driving up there - it can be very dangerous if the weather isn’t great and they are all very inexperienced drivers. Finally, it’s just not our values to support a coed, unsupervised trip at this age- I realize that makes me old fashioned. These are truly great kids - they are probably all in the top 20 of the class, and they have all been away in groups for summers, etc (except for my son) - they have good heads on their shouldars but I think there are too many concerns here. The students are all pitching in so the parent isn’t paying for the condo, just putting it on her credit card. We feel very badly because we do trust him, but not the situation. But, this has been very painful and I am really annoyed with this mother who agreed to rent the condo.</p>
<p>Rileydog – “…and I am really annoyed with this mother who agreed to rent the condo.” As you should be, as I would be, as so many posters here would be. At the risk of repeating myself, where is her head?</p>
<p>Our former hs principal (and father of 4 young adults) told us his wife had a theory: there was a critical number of teens, and when that critical number was reached one person would have a stupid idea and the others would get swept up and follow along. He said the only thing he and she could never nail down was the exact number needed. Rileydog, I think you said at this point 9 kids were going on the trip? I’d put the critical number somewhere between 8 and 12. Stand firm on your NO, your son will get over it eventually.</p>
<p>I just wanted to point something out as a student. I understand your concerns, etc. However, next year, they will be at college, unsupervised by themselves. Eventually, you do have to completely trust them or if you don’t, then they can still do what they want. If they want to drink, they will drink at college, unfortuntaely to say. They will have to live with the consciences. I think if they are 18 (and are paying) then they should be able to do what they want. After I graduate from high school, I am going on a trip to Uganda to work with AIDS victims. My parents aren’t thrilled at all, but I am paying and am 18.</p>
<p>^See, but there’s a difference between going to Uganda-which is undoubtedly dangerous, but at least you’re doing something worthwhile (I commend you by the way)-and going to a cabin for a weekend just because you can, AND (even worse) “because everyone else is going”. And if the kids go with that mentality already in mind, how much of their good judgment will they use when the alcohol starts a-flowin’?</p>
<p>Now, I’m a student too. And I’ll too be at college in four months. But I’m not there yet.</p>
<p>From what I understand, these kids are just too inexperienced to go on this kind of trip unsupervised. You don’t become all-knowing the day you turn 18. The “They’ll be in college soon, so just let them drink ILLEGALLY in a cabin someone else is renting for them” is the lamest cop-out and excuse for irresponsibility I have ever heard.</p>
<p>Besides…I don’t think (in this case) it’s a matter of not trusting the child as not trusting the situation. There’s a large difference.</p>
<p>It’s rather like this: April 4-6, I’m taking a trip to San Francisco with a choral group of mine. The only real adult supervision is my conductor and our accompanist. Our rules are relatively lax…travel in at least 2, call the director if we’re leaving the hotel, check-ins at certain times, etc. We’re all very smart and have good heads on our shoulders. However, each night, the director places tape on our doors so he’ll know if we leave our room during the night (for reasons other than an emergency). Now this isn’t because he doesn’t trust us, because he’s known most of us for 3/4 years and knows we’re good kids. It’s so if someone else vandalizes or something or something goes wrong, they can’t say “well you know, I saw those high school kids walking around”…</p>
<p>But there’s no way to do that on a trip like this. I’d keep my kid home more to keep liability off of him/her than anything else.</p>
<p>The thing is if they are 18 and paying, then they can do whatever they want. However, if they are not paying, then that is a different story. Legally, once your 18, you are free to do whatever you want. Whether or not you make the best decisions or not is your choice. Eventually, the decisions rest on you. I understand the thing completely. But, if a group of kids truly and completely want to drink, then they will find a way to do so.</p>
<p>Thanks. My parents think that is a great thing to do. However, they just wished I wait till I am older. I do see that point. However, in my stubborn teenager mind, I would like to do this now so that I can get reminded of what in life truly matters and why I will be spending the next 10 years of my life to become a doctor.</p>
<p>^I think you’re doing it at the perfect time. Besides, this is one of those things where if you put it off, you’ll probably never do it, getting into the mentality of “Well, I’ll do it after _________”.</p>
<p>Come on…the whole “They’re going to do it anyway” is a cop-out also. You’re forgetting the fact that the drinking age is 21, and if these kids are drinking, they’re breaking the law. And should one of them be stupid while drunk (big shocker), the mom is held accountable.</p>
<p>Now, like I said, I wouldn’t be sympathetic because she shouldn’t have rented the darned thing in the first place. But “just because they’re going to do it anyway” is no reason to allow something.</p>
<p>And even though they’re paying, the mom’s name is still on the bill. So she is still liable. So they should live by her rules, one of which is most likely no alcohol.</p>
<p>I do see your point completely. But, the thing is it is true. Kids will be kids, and if they truly want to drink and break the law they will find a way. Yes, when you are drunk, you tend to make bigger mistakes.</p>
<p>Maybe, the OP should try to find another alternative to this idea. Maybe a trip or something with friends. Something that doesn’t involve a condo, etc. I know a group of kids that went on a trip after senior year and had a blast, there was no-alcohol.</p>
<p>A few of my friends and I are talking about going to San Francisco for a weekend…we’d take a bus and stay in a hotel (motel 8 or something else cheap), because I’m too inexperienced of a driver to make a long trip like that and most of my friends don’t drive or the ones that do can’t drive others yet.</p>
<p>If drinking were not illegal for kids those age, would everyone still be objecting to the idea of high schoolers drinking?</p>
<p>Personally, I wouldn’t (well, I don’t anyways, but that’s not the point), and that’s the test I use as to whether I ignore the law. For someone to say “this is immoral because it’s illegal” is a flimsy argument, because it suggests a highly transient morality that I don’t think is really valid. Was it immoral and a bad idea to allow kids to have alcohol 26 years ago before it became illegal? Is it immoral to let 18 year olds drink in countries where they are legal? These things show, to me, the absurdity of the “but it’s illegal!” argument.</p>
<p>I like to think my personal morals are informed by more than the transient, often baseless mores subscribed by the law.</p>
<p>^It’s not so much the illegality to me as the fact that they’re doing it when someone else could take the fall. Does that make more sense?</p>
<p>I don’t follow laws just because they’re the law…I break speed limit all the time. XD I can’t really think of any other laws I break, but that’s beside the point.</p>
<p>My friends all know that I don’t care if they drink, so long as they don’t call me drunk begging me to pick them up from God knows where and they don’t do it around me. I can’t stop them.</p>
<p>I would hope, however, that these kids would have the good sense and courtesy not to put this mom at risk.</p>
<p>^^^ I completely agree with you on that. I know a person, who has smoked pot before and has gotten drunk numerous times. She knows that I am opposed to smoking completely, and would never do it, and don’t want to be around her when she does it. However, the other 90 percent of the time, she is one of my best and closest friends. But, also, that is besides the point.</p>
<p>They are the laws, and you risk the consquences. Would I drink in France if I was there? Of course I would. Would I smoke pot if it was legal in a country, no, because it is against my views. You need to have a mixture of morals and obeying the law… mostly all obeying the law. Just tonight I ran a red light… of course… it is against the law. Against my morals, not really. (BTW, it was a very rural street…no one in sight, and I had to get home due to a family emergency earlier this night).</p>
<p>The old tape on the door trick, lol. They’re doing that because they don’t want anyone having sex, regardless of what they’re telling you. If you don’t believe me, break the tape on a night when you know there’s been no vandalism and see how they respond.</p>
<p>My daughter went to CO with 10 friends(boys and girls), with parents at the house. The parents had a guide to take them hiking and mountain biking, a cook was also available at the house to them. The parents wrote a 2 page letter to all parents on activities and contact information. Whereas our daughter’s friend from London took her gap year (normal in Europe) to travel around the world with a guy frined. They paid for their own expense and made all traveling plans. We were her last stop. She was very happy to sleep in a nice bed for a few nights before she went home. Asked her if her parents were concerned, she said yes but they thought it would be good for her.</p>
<p>The thing about the tape is that it really bothers me in a couple of ways. I understand completely why. But, the thign why it bothers me is that it says that they do not trust me or them, which is something that bothers me when my parents don’t trust me. I dunno.</p>
<p><em>Shrug</em> It doesn’t bother me when a teacher doesn’t trust me, especially when I don’t like him/her (the teacher I’m referring to is known to play favorites and is far too political). The teachers I like all really trust me, and I know my parents do, so having one teacher not trust me (if that really is the case) doesn’t bother me.</p>
<p>Speed limits are extremely necessary, far more necessary than drinking ages. Let’s apply the categorical imperative here: What if everyone on the road ignored the speed limit? The result is that things would be a lot more dangerous, and I’d be less safe. </p>
<p>Now, what if every 18 year old drank responsibly at social events? The result would have no effect on me. (And before anyone says the roads will be more dangerous given this scenario also, remember that drinking isn’t the proximate cause of getting in a traffic accident, drinking and driving is)</p>
Besides, this is one of those things where if you put it off, you’ll probably never do it, getting into the mentality of “Well, I’ll do it after _________”.</p>