<p>Sure, I’ve known cc students who probably shouldn’t have been students at all … at least not at that time in their lives. But, even so, for me, open admission at community college has always been something of a sacred cow.</p>
<p>Should we limit access to college to only candidates who have proved their readiness to be there or should community colleges still maintain a welcome mat to all, even those who require remedial classes before they are ready for true college courses?</p>
<p>I’m OK with getting rid of CC remedial classes as long as people have some place to take remedial classes. Using alternative high schools for this purpose might make a lot of sense. It also might get kids to think a little more about what they are doing in HS, whether they are putting out enough effort, taking hard enough classes, really preparing for college.</p>
<p>It also might increase HS accountability. If the stats were clear that X percent of a given HS’s students go on after graduation to attend remedial classes at alternative high schools, then people would better understand what the HS is actually achieving. Right now they just report that Y percent go on to college, never mind whether they are taking remedial classes there. It is a bit misleading to say to students ‘you graduated, go take classes at the CC’ only to find that your classes at the CC don’t count towards a degree, that your HS classes (and diploma) inadequately prepared you for CC.</p>
<p>(My bias here is the strong opinion that if a student is not in advanced level classes in HS, then they are not really prepared for college, but no one points this out to kids or parents)</p>
<p>Good point! In a perfect world, all college-bound students would leave high school prepared for college, at least a some level beyond remedial. And also in that same perfect world, those who aren’t ready for college would find remedial help elsewhere and delay their college start until they have the maturity and the academic preparation to begin.</p>
<p>But, as things stand now, I’m torn. On one hand, it irks me that students who snoozed through high school often head to college anyway. On the other hand, I acknowledge that if, our college system doesn’t accommodate everyone who wants to enroll in some way–then those who are late-bloomers or who didn’t get support from home or at school as teenagers may never find their way to higher education.</p>
<p>But who pays for this. If a kid snoozed though high school and then wants to go to college, at least he PAYS for his remedial classes. If he has those remedial classes in a public high school , then we as taxpayers, pay for those classes.</p>
<p>That’s why it’s important to get kids into remedial classes in high school when they’re needed, rather than letting them tread water in college-prep classes, then pushing them along to the next grade level even after they earned “D’s” (which should have been "F’s). It doesn’t cost the tax-payer any more to have a student in an English or math class that moves slowly than it does to have that same student in a standard class that he or she can’t keep up with … or that is so large that snoozing (whether it’s literal or figurative) is possible.</p>
<p>Small schools with small classes would help a lot. This morning I read about a brand-new public school in L.A. that cost $578 Million. But it wasn’t just the price tag that caught my eye. The article also said that the school would house 4,200 pupils in grades k-12. While this doesn’t make the individual class sizes egregiously large (and I do like the concept of K-12 public schools) I would much rather see us building schools designed to accommodate, say, 80 students per grade rather than several hundred. It’s much easier to keep kids from falling through the cracks in small schools as well as in small classes.</p>
<p>Happykid just graduated from a “Newsweek Top 100 HS”. She will be attending our local community college this fall and is enrolled pre-pre-college algebra. In other words, she faces TWO “remedial” classes before the lowest level of college credit math. This is because her “Newsweek Top 100 HS” like many other high schools around the nation simply can’t scavenge up enough skilled teachers for the math classes. Her four years of math included Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2, and Consumer Math. In each year of the A1, G, A2 series she had one semester with a strong teacher and one with a weak teacher. Unfortunately when she got to A2, she had the weak one first and never recovered.</p>
<p>Until the math teacher issue is fixed nationwide, the community colleges (and even regular colleges and universities) will be stuck picking up the slack.</p>
<p>We can gnash our teeth about the cost of supplying pre-college courses to college students, but the fact of the matter is that many students need them, particularly in math. At my community college, nearly 90% of incoming students did not test into college-level math. There are many reasons for this, most notably that students don’t remember what they learned (i.e. their high school transcript indicates that they ARE ready for college-level math). So, we have no choice but to offer pre-college math courses, which constitute about 50% of our math offerings. Expensive? You bet. Unacceptable? Perhaps, but we have made the committment as a community college to offer the courses that our students need - as opposed to the courses that we think they need.</p>
<p>For example, I just met with a former student who neglected to take any meaninful math in high school, then showed up at our doors 10 years later. We placed him into Basic Arithmetic, and he then had to progress through 4 more before he was ready for college-level math. But, he persevered, earning ‘A’ grades in them all, then working through pre-Calculus, our entire Calculus series, and Linear Algebra/Differential Equations. He went on to complete our pre-Engineering Associate Degree, then transferred to the U of Washington, where he earned a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering. He’s in grad school now, and none of this would have been possible if we did not offer so-called ‘remedial’ courses.</p>
<p>Maybe schools should use Saxon Math. It has been used in the public school system (and the shools/students that did use it did quite well with it). I homeschooled my kids and used Saxon math with all of them. I personally have no great math abilities (just got by in high school and didn’t have to take any math in college - 2 decades ago), but had my kids use Saxon math. Being the mean mother that I am, I made them do every problem and correct every error. Did that make me a good and gifted math teacher (or just plain old mean LOL)? I don’t know but I do know that my kids all tested into college credit math. And no, I do not have math whiz kids. Only one is pursuing a math field. </p>
<p>Happymom, your story is just so sad. I am so sorry for your daughter’s experience. I hope she has a good experience with her community college math teacher. Our experience has been a mixed bag - some great teachers, some ok teachers and a few really bad ones.</p>
<p>Cutting remedial classes is a great way to externalize the cost of an undereducated work force. Granted, that’s a lot of pressure on the city colleges. But, it’d probably help to have some kind of top-down decision making with high schools, tech schools, etc.</p>
<p>As someone who used to tutor remedial math at community college, students often arrived in these classes comfortable with the idea that they’re “just not good at math.” It’s tough, but that sort of thinking has to be stopped as early as possible.</p>
<p>Personally, as a community college student, I had a panic attack on the placement test, eventually placing into the second lowest pre college classes. I’m currently making high As in these classes, as they offer little to no challenge to me.<br>
Some of the people in these classes don’t belong in college, obviously (such as the girl who was clueless as to why “pink and fuzzy” did not constitute a sentence), but many of them are from disadvantaged areas of the island (I live on Oahu), and are only trying to better themselves through college.
Obviously, I think community colleges should keep the remedial classes.</p>
<p>*But who pays for this. If a kid snoozed though high school and then wants to go to college, at least he PAYS for his remedial classes. If he has those remedial classes in a public high school , then we as taxpayers, pay for those classes. *</p>
<p>Actually, depending on the state, the taxpayers are also paying for those college level remedial classes. For example, in California, the CCC tuition pays about 1/10th of the actual cost of the education because the CCCs are so heavily subsidized by the state.</p>
<p>If you also figure in all the state financial aid, such as CalGrants, for some of the students, their 1/10th chip-in is also covered by the tax-payers.</p>
<p>My thought is if more tax-payer citizens could see up close and personal some of the CC students who are stuck in a remedial merry-go-round of community classes (students who take these classes over and over and over) that the open door policy would change. </p>
<p>For California, I believe charging a more competitive rate for CCC classes (not a popular stance, I know) would help not just with the bottom line, but also have students think long and hard before signing up for the same pre-algebra class they flunked 2 times before at a CCC. When units are just $27 each and most classes then cost under $100 to take (with the state picking up the other $900 per class!!!) there just isn’t enough “skin” in the game on the part of some students.</p>
<p>I think community college is the perfect place to offer remedial high-school-and-below level courses for non-traditional students who want to enter or re-enter the work force. I’m thinking convicts re-entering society (unless you want to pay for their perpetual incarceration, which costs a hell of a lot more than community college!!!), recovering addicts, people leaving abusive spouses with no profession, wards of the state that may have floated through school and had no support to get into college, etc. People who want to turn their lives around.</p>
<p>I do not think it’s an ideal place to repeat high-school for people that just graduated. The problem is that we are graduating people that ought not to be graduating. I hate how our system won’t let people skip grades and hardly ever holds people back. It’s ridiculous.</p>
<p>I guess I think people should have to get into a program run by that particular college by meeting certain risk factors, and be out of high-school for a certain amount of time, in order to qualify. And there should be a limit to how many times they can repeat it.</p>
<p>But as a society we need a re-integration mechanism for people who are at risk of falling into the abyss (where we will be paying for EVERYTHING for them, forget books, how does kidney dialysis sound to you?), and community colleges are an awesome mechanism for that.</p>
<p>Most CC students are non-traditional. They are adults who have been out of school for some time. When I went to CC, I would say at least 50% of my classmates were 30+. I’m willing to guess that on a cold test after walking in the day they decided to change their life’s direction, they failed the test in droves.</p>
<p>Yes, some of them are recent high-school grads, but not most.</p>
<p>“But who pays for this. If a kid snoozed though high school and then wants to go to college, at least he PAYS for his remedial classes. If he has those remedial classes in a public high school , then we as taxpayers, pay for those classes.”</p>
<p>If the person is in prison, you’re going to be paying for that, PLUS:</p>
<p>Room
Board
Medical care
Utilities
Dental care
Etc.</p>
<p>Now how does that sound? When you get a ward of the state out of juvy (let’s say he punched a teacher in a fit of rage, having had the crap beat out of him the night before, that’s no excuse but still, there but for the grace of God go I, I had parents), do you want to:</p>
<p>(a) Tell him you want nothing to do with him and have him on the street selling drugs or turning tricks, and landing in prison?
(b) Pay a little bit towards his education, increasing the chances that at least he’ll go into retail and pay rent on an apartment or trailer somewhere?
(c) Pay for a special program for him, more than you’d prefer, but increase the chances that he’ll eventually be a job-creator and join the working class, with kids that do not disrupt your kids’ teachers?</p>
<p>I choose (b) or (c). You’ll pay for a lot of these people anyway… please realize that. God doesn’t pay for the prison system (or the courts, oh God, not to mention the courts).</p>
<p>I think that remedial classes should be part of the mission of community colleges. Not everyone taking remedial classes “snoozed their way through high school.”</p>
<p>My mom, for example, went to a very underfunded high school in, if you’ll excuse the term, a ghetto. Many students (although not my mother) carried knives and the rest were beaten up if they didn’t have “protection money.” Her dad was a cab driver (who was forced to drop out of school before high school to take over the failing family business) and her mom a homemaker, so they really had no idea of what classes she needed to take. The school didn’t offer calculus or geometry, just basic math. The teachers, as you might imagine, were not top-quality. My mom ended up graduating in 3 years and heading off to community college to basically relearn everything. She ended up going to a great university, getting a bachelors, masters, as well as a PhD, and is now a very successful university professor and scientist.</p>
<p>She didn’t snooze or fool around; she was a truly disadvantaged student. We have to remember that a lot of students out there lack the resources to be successful in high school and that remedial classes offer a great opportunity for those students to find a path to success.</p>
<p>I had a community college math professor who has first-hand experience with these students. Too often, these students would show up, obviously on something. Then, the next day they would miss class, and the next day, and the next, and so on. Somebody paid for their tuition, and all of the money was going to waste. The moral of the story is that you can pay to get these people into a classroom, but you can’t force them to take school seriously. That has to come from them, and they have to break free from a culture that places such low expectations on them, in which they’ve probably lived their whole life.</p>
<p>That said, CC’s should keep their remedial courses, as there are students who are ready to take school seriously. I had to take a remedial english class and a remedial math class, and these classes serve as gatekeeper courses, preparing those students who are dedicated to getting into college, while weeding out those who aren’t.</p>
<p>I think I need to share my experience. First, I am a Registered Nurse who ended up graduating #1 in her nursing class with only one B.</p>
<p>I would not have gotten there without my remedial math course. I never studied in hs and fell so far behind in math…just hated it. Of course, I wasn’t ready for college level algebra. So I took remedial math first - didn’t even count for a credit!</p>
<p>I ended up in College Algebra the next semester with a B plus. And finished chemistry with an almost 100% average. I don’t feel that my one remedial class was some terrible drain on the system…I mean, I did pay for it! It certainly wasn’t free.</p>
<p>So no, I do not think community colleges should drop remedial classes.</p>
<p>Edit: Please keep in mind there are so many non-traditional students at CC. I was 19 when I started because I had my daughter less than a year after my senior year! I remember taking classes with 30 and 40 year olds.In fact, I was probably one of the youngest!</p>
<p>“Remedial” classes–in math in particular–are often a necessity for older returning students (who often turn out to be the most successful and motivated undergrads, as mspearl was). When I watched my son doing his middle school algebra homework last year, I vaguely remembered having done those same kinds of problems, but I would have no clue how to tackle them now. So even though “remedial” may connote “not up to snuff,” in many cases it really means “reminder.” And I hate to think of non-traditional students deciding not to return to school only because they need a refresher class in subjects they may have studied decades earlier.</p>