Should Community Colleges Make Curriculum Harder?

College Search & Lists Community Colleges
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<p>According to the Atlantic “a new report finds a dramatic misalignment between what high schools expect, what community colleges teach, and what real-world employers require.” Should community colleges make curriculum harder? What do you think?</p>

<p>Here is the original article:
[For</a> Many Students, College Means Back to Middle School - Kenneth Terrell - The Atlantic](<a href=“For Many Students, College Means Back to Middle School - The Atlantic”>For Many Students, College Means Back to Middle School - The Atlantic)</p>

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<p>That’s really tough, there are people who did poorly in required schooling and thus going to an easy community college is a good transition for them. However, then there are people who just go there because they are cheaper and don’t actually get the education that they want/need…Then there are people who need them because of a busy schedule and the easier course load makes it manageable… </p>

<p>Overall, I see no they shouldn’t make it harder. However, they should make sure to inform people about the lack of actual preparation for some fields; but that’s a bad marketing practice, so nothing will be done.</p>

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<p>I agree with ZombieDante about people who require and easy transition. I was out of school for 20+ years (I’m 44) so I had to get my “feet wet” so to speak. Luckily I adapted really quick and have thrived at a CC. I started to set goals to transfer out to a better college/university so one of the things I decided to do was sign up for Honors classes. A person can attend a CC and take honors classes & receive a very decent and respectable education. I’m currently preparing to apply for a transfer to Texas A & M in January for Fall 2014. I think a CC is what you make of it. It is possible to save a lot of $$ and yet get a very decent education & still wind up graduating from a Tier 1 university with a transfer. That in my opinion is a very wise decision, at least in my case.</p>

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<p>I think it’s important to read through the article. The point that’s being made is that what’s needed for most jobs is basic middle school math. It’s not the community colleges which need to change their curricula, it’s the middle schools. The author notes that middle school teachers are lacking good math skills themselves, so are unable to teach it well.</p>

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<p>In re-reading the article, the author seems to raise several points, some of which are contradictory. What I’m getting is that in order to take courses for credit at the community college, students have to pass thresholds in math, but these thresholds are higher than the math that’s needed for most jobs. It’s hard for those in remedial math to go back to middle school math and re-learn it as that weren’t properly taught years ago. The middle school math teachers never learned math well enough themselves, and so the cycle continues. </p>

<p>According to the author, high schools aim for Algebra II and community colleges want students at this level before they can take courses for credit. But coming into the college with poor math skills from as far back as middle school, and I’d venture elementary school as well, it’s hard for these remedial students to get up to the point of being able to take courses for credit. </p>

<p>It would make for easier reading if some of these thoughts were more developed so the reader isn’t left wondering about the point of it all. In my opinion elementary and middle schools are doing a very poor job, in general, of preparing students. It’s their curricula and teacher skills which need improvement. It’s also my opinion that community colleges do a great job giving students the opportunity to begin learning at whatever level they’re at, and progressing as they’re able. It takes work and perseverance on the part of the student, and a willingness to access all the help which is available. </p>

<p>In my opinion, it’s the preparation of teachers which needs standards to be raised. How is it that a middle school teacher can be certified without having good math skills well above the level they’ll be teaching? From reading posts here, it seems that many consider an education major to be one of the easiest available. There’s definitely something wrong with that.</p>

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<p>I agree that the article could be much better developed and it has no new information for those of us in the trenches at CCs. A great example of the disconnect in English is that nearly all high school English curricula deal with literature, but once you get to college, you never have to take another lit class if you follow certain major paths. For college, you need to be able to do research-based writing. </p>

<p>I would also add, and this is a generalization, that up until the time a student starts college, society tends to blame teachers for all the ills of schools. Once students reach college, the onus is on them to perform. For many, it is the first time they realize that education is a cause and effect relationship. Some are shocked that they need to do more than just show up.</p>

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<p>I think there are definitely some very valid points made in this article. I’m in a CC right now, and I can attest to some of this. What has to be considered though, is that CC students are typically of a much higher age than a traditional university student. For instance, the average age of enrolled students at my CC is 29 as I recall. There are plenty of fresh out of high school kids here, but there are plenty of students in their 30’s, 40’s and 50’s too. </p>

<p>Math definitely constitutes a big problem with that. For example, my school has 5-6 sections of elementary and intermediate algebra in a given semester, but typically only 2 sections of calculus I. Calculus II and III usually only have one section, and are only offered on a sequential basis. My CC is actually taking some steps to restructure the remedial math here. We even have pre-algebra and pre-pre-algebra here. Starting in the fall, pre-algebra and elementary algebra are going to be merged into one course, thus cutting down the time that many students will spend in pre-college math. </p>

<p>The problem obviously goes far beyond that though. I’m a math tutor, both privately and in my schools tutoring center, and there are a lot of students that just don’t “get” it. I hate to sound rude, or cynical…but CC’s seem to have a lot of the kind of students that probably aren’t really cut out for a college education. A lot of them are only shooting for a two year degree, or a certificate so they can go right to work. These tend to not always be the greatest students in my experience. I understand that I’m an overachiever, and that probable skews my view of such things, but many of these students seem to simply hold a lot of their classes with an air of contempt. They resent the fact that they have to take math courses, they hate their geneds, and generally just don’t understand why they need to take any course that isn’t “directly” pertaining to their major. These students often blame the schools requirements, or the teachers that “aren’t explaining it right,” but the real issue comes down to themselves. They don’t want to apply themselves to it because they see college as being nothing but career training. CC’s get a lot more of that mentality than universities do.</p>

<p>The flip side though, is that there are some very talented and very bright students in CC’s. My CC enrolls around 4000 people annually, and this last semester over 200 students finished with 4.0’s(myself included), with another several hundred finishing with a 3.75+ and another several hundred with 3.5+. These are typically students that are starting in a CC for financial reasons though.</p>

<p>Overall, I do feel that there are some real issues in the CC philosophy, but they still serve a very important purpose. The biggest problem I’ve seen in my school is that there are too many adjuncts that simply view their position as being temporary. In the interest of cutting costs, this has almost become necessary, though it’s very unfortunate.</p>

<p>Sorry, a lot of that was probably incredibly tangential to the original topic…lol</p>

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<p>I chose a community college because, frankly, I was a horrible student in high school and I dropped out of college when those problems carried over. I’m torn because, while I am extremely grateful that I have been given a second chance at an education in my late 20s, I am also concerned that the education being given at a community college, particularly in the math and sciences, isn’t going to adequately prepare people for STEM majors at universities post-transfer.</p>

<p>Sure, the courses may be articulated, especially in California, so on paper, I should appear quite ready. But, will I be, or is this all an illusion? I’m sure I’m not the only community college transfer student feeling this way, but is this all just a silly concern or a real problem when adjusting to university life?</p>

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<p>Personally, I’ve never felt that any of my classes have been excessively easy, and I’m a very good student. Some of my GenEd classes have been pretty easy in comparison to my other classes, but I’m a physics major, so that’s to be expected. The math and science at my school is really quite rigorous. My calculus teacher is meticulously picky, our chemistry professors both have doctorates, and know their material very well, and even do their own research still. Our physics professor is awesome, and is very rigorous. Sadly, he’s in the process of retiring, so I’ll have a new physics professor this fall. I’m anxiously waiting to see if he/she makes the cut or not.</p>

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<p>To anyone who complains about a class being too easy: why didn’t (or couldn’t) you supplement your insufficient education with self-study and instruction from people other than your instructor? Or if you did, did you find your effort in vain in any way? (Not as competent as rigorously educated peers, not recognized for your expertise, passed over for less competent job applicants with flashier written credentials, etc.)</p>

<p>So I’m not misunderstood, that’s not a rhetorical question.</p>

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<p>When I was an RA back in the stone ages (20 years ago), many CC transfers into my school had a really hard time adjusting and many said the classes were much harder. I think some of that was just adjusting to upper division courses and adjusting to living away from home at a school with a small transfer community that expected you to do more learning on your own. With the economy the way it is, and more students with higher out of high school GPA’s initially attending CC, I hope that the CC’s out there maintain a rigorous curriculum so that their transfers are ready, and those that go straight to a career are also ready. But if it’s something stupid like requiring culinary arts students to take Calculus III, jut get rid of the requirement! But if it’s a Science, for example and you need the math, and you need the remedial, that’s not the school’s fault.</p>

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<p>No/yes.</p>

<p>I remember getting out of my Calculus class and my friend said his brother was taking the COMPASS so he could enroll in the fall about 2-3 years ago. While we waited for him the guy at the desk said that only 3% of the whole school even hits College Algebra on the placement exam. I find that just shameful. I was a terrible math student in high school, but I still tested into Calculus never having took College Algebra/Trig before. So did most of the people I eventually got to know in my courses. Everyone I knew from my high school tested into arithmetic!</p>

<p>I think they should make the TAP courses in my experience harder because those were a joke and I learned nothing. </p>

<p>I believe that I got a great math education though from Calculus I-III, DE/Linear Algebra and Physics I/I/III. For those who truly could hack math, I got a good education with them and made some good friends. We ended up forming a physics club and rocket club while we were there. </p>

<p>I barely studied my way through community college and the lack of rigor motivated me to try less. However, just being surrounded by people in the general education classes who ask dumb questions, the teachers give them stares like those students are idiots, and me not understanding how people can be this dumb…I say it’s sink or swim. If you can’t swim and transfer out, too bad. It’s already easy enough. I think it was 10-13 percent that transferred out of my college.</p>

<p>I had a hard time adjusting my first quarter, but I just finished school about a month ago and I got good grades.</p>

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<p>@mikey750</p>

<p>You will be at a disadvantage. But not necessarily just for reasons you may think. </p>

<p>Most people who go into the STEM fields tend to have done the right things since they were little kids…and while their brains were still growing and the neural wiring still being shaped. </p>

<p>The sciences and engineering are not typically considered FALL BACK fields. </p>

<p>In other words, if you’ve never done well in the past and never have shown an inclination towards the STEM fields while a kid, you will be in for a rude awakening when you’re in a large university class with a lot of students who excelled at math and science ALL of their lives. Believe me, the competition at a decent 4 year university is nothing like a community college.</p>

<p>You are right to be concerned.</p>

<p>But good luck.</p>

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<p>But mikey750 will be at a huge advantage at his CC because he can see the big picture much more clearly than his younger peers. Because of that, he will get much more out of his classes than his peers.</p>

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<p>If it was up to me I’d require all elementary and middle school teachers (never mind high school math teachers) to do math up to multi-variable calculus before they can even get certification.</p>

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<p>I agree with what ZombieDante said. For those of us that use Community College as a platform for a 4-year school, I feel we are at a severe disadvantage. Granted I’m just a 2nd year at a CC, but at the very least when it comes to Science majors, the level of the courses doesn’t match what a University expects you to know. It makes you wonder if it was even worth it to take the time (granted it is cheaper) to go to a CC. Knowing this, if I had the funding to start at a 4-year school off the bat, I likely wouldn’t be where I am.</p>

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<p>I took what was labeled as a computer science class in college the summer after my sophomore year of high school. “A joke” doesn’t come close to capturing it; we learned maybe two units’ worth of information about networks and the history of computers and spent the rest of the time learning <em>Microsoft Word</em>, Excel, PowerPoint, and Access. I never even turned in a few of my assignments for PowerPoint or <em>any</em> of them for Access and I still got an A. The class lasted four hours a day, two days a week. I frequently left early and screwed around on the computer.</p>

<p>It needs to change.</p>

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<p>As a community college student myself (finishing up the last 2 classes for my AA), I have to agree that, at least at my school, community college is pretty easy. I’ve always had above average intelligence, but I’ve always been a horrible student (I was diagnosed at 20 with ADHD during my first attempt at college). I went to summer school every year of HS, I graduated in summer school with a 1.9 gpa, the highest math I made it to was pre-algebra and I got a D in that. Then, when I had a child and got my head on straight I tried college again. I was able to earn a 3.0 gpa with very little effort. I just showed up to class and did the work. I did have to take 3 remedial math classes. There were so many people there that I didn’t understand why they even bothered to show up. Kids who whined about having to work out long division without a calculator…some of whom didn’t even know how and you should have seen the slumped shoulders in my Comp and Lit classes. I was recently accepted to the University of Florida and start classes in a month. Let me tell ya’ll, I’m scared! There’s no way I’ll be able to maintain this gpa with the amount of effort I’ve put in thus far.</p>

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<p>Oh and wanted to add that I transferred over a .65 gpa from said previous attempt at college, that 3.0 only reflects classes from this attempt. Overall it’s a 2.15 or so. Yea…I was a pretty big screw up. Thank goodness for second chances!</p>

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<p>I’ll add on to what you said, I was working in the Math Lab at my CC last Fall and the people in the Pre-Algebra classes thought I was crazy when I said I wasn’t able to use a calculator in my Pre-Calculus and Calculus I classes for quizzes and exams. The thing I don’t think they understood was that you’re expected to remember Trigonometry (which they hadn’t even thought about yet) and the unit circle (again, they didn’t know about this yet) and that most or all calculations were simple and just made sure you understood the material you were being taught.</p>

<p>Your acceptance to Florida really tells a great story about your second opportunity at education. As long as you don’t let yourself go back to who you used to be, everything will be fine. Even as a 4.0 CC student, I’m sure I’ll be pretty scared when I end up transferring next Fall. Especially wondering if my (seemingly easy) math background will translate to upper-division math.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>