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<p>A summary of my objections to the trip can be found in post #10.</p>
<p>I respect your worries about him going, but as a parent who was pretty careful with my son growing up (for example, neither my wife or I would allow him to go into a public restroom alone before he was a bit older then most people would allow, nor would we allow him to attend overnight camp when he was younger), it is a fine line between our care and concern for the child as they grow up and their need for independence. You son is only 19, which means in many ways he isn’t fully developed, but on the other hand he is old enough IME to make his own decisions on this kind of thing. I think too when it comes to children we tend to exaggerate the risks and such, it is natural (my wife still has problems with our S, who is 16, when he has ridden the subways with friends and such; meanwhile at 14 I was riding the subways and doing things like “riding the system” when I was his age, which meant riding the subway continuously to hit every station on the system, almost 30 hours worth…and this was back when the subways were a lot more dangerous).</p>
<p>I agree with others, you are paying for his schooling and are still his parent, so you have the right to cut off funds and such if you feel it is appropriate, but I agree with others, do you want to wreck your relationship with your son over this? I understand feeling hurt and angry that your son isn’t listening to you and it seems like he doesn’t respect your opinion on this but what I have found is that in many cases, I am reacting more for my own issues rather then what is causing the conflict. Quite honestly, it is hard as a parent to let go, I know that only too well, but it is something we have to do. My son has decided to go seriously into music, for example, and knowing what a tough, tough road it is and how passionate and dedicated he is, despite my misgivings I realize he has to make his own decisions and find his own path…I have seen, for example, far too many kids who are basically forced by their parents to go to a certain school, major in certain things, be certain things because that was their dream, and the kid ends up miserable and resenting it. </p>
<p>And one thought to think about, if you use paying for school as leverage to stop him from going, what will he likely do when he is out on his own and beholden only to himself…will he respect your opinions still, your advice, enough to listen to it, or could this incident paint him into a mindset that after stopping him from going (or trying to stop him) he sees you, not as a wise parent who still has wisdom to give, but rather as someone who refused to allow him to make his own decisions? What happens if he is out on his own, and you see him doing something that really might hurt himself, destroy his life, and because the bond has been wrecked by denying him this, he refuses to listen? That could happen, and it is one of the hard things about being a parent when we still have some control, knowing when to fight the battles and knowing where to lay off, especially at a time when he is trying to find the way to being an adult. Obviously, if you feel so strongly about what he plans on doing that you need to act, then do so, but think about how your S must feel like, he could feel like you are arbitrarily laying down a line and saying he isn’t mature enough to make decisions; he sees this simply as a chance to take a trip to another place, and whatever your misgivings are, he doesn’t feel them. In a sense, by threatening something so severe, he can end up feeling like you don’t respect him as a person, that he is some sort of dimwitted child in your eyes, and that has to hurt. It isn’t about right or wrong, only saying as hurt as you may be that he seems not to respect your opinion or feelings, he is probably feeling it just as hard. </p>
<p>And I ask gently, could the upset be a combination of not liking what he wants to do, and also maybe realizing deep down that you no longer have the kind of control you once did, that he is really following his own path? I have no way of knowing what goes on in your head or heart, so that is said without judgement, but something my therapist told me along time ago, that when someone, myself or someone I am dealing with, seems to be upset more then the incident seems to deserve, that there is something deeper there,and I have seen this plenty of times. </p>
<p>I haven’t read all the responses on this issue but I am aware of the kind of travel you are talking about, the group doing it, and they do have a reason for doing it, they are trying to get kids to reconnect to their Jewish roots so to speak, there is no secret to that. I also know a number of young people who have done that trip or similar ones, and none of them as far as I know has come back a raging religious zealot or even religious, it doesn’t sound like they are a cult brainwashing kids and such, least not from what I have seen. The kids I know went because it was a free trip and they would like to see Israel out of curiousity, both for its ancient roots and to see the places and such they hear about on the news.</p>
<p>Is it dangerous there? There is a heightened risk there, there is no doubt about it, between potential terrorism and things like rockets being launched and such. However, I also will add that knowing how tour groups work in Israel I would say that they probably do everything they can to keep the people safe, they probably have relatively heavy security (including possibly military or private security) with them rather then being off on their own wander where they may well wander into the wrong place. And even with the heightened threat, if you look at any given day in Israel, it is probably unlikely in their sojourn there they would experience problems. More importantly, nowhere is safe, here in NYC we have had some aborted terrorist attempts, including a car bomb that didn’t go off, and Europe is a major target. if you go to France or England both of them have major terrorism issues, there are radical Islamic groups targeting European places, and worse, they have a severe internal problem with home grown terrorism. Not long ago a train was bombed in Madrid and hundreds were killed, and incidents have happened in England and it is not unlikely something will happen there any day; might be less risk then Israel statistically but it is still a risk. </p>
<p>Again, understand I am not judging here, I make plenty of my own mistakes, like when I get mad at my son for taking things I don’t think he should, and having my better half remind me that I am speaking as an adult, not a teenage boy who in many ways depends on the people who I feel have done not great things to him…and she is usually right, so I am just as guilty:).</p>
<p>I read this thread pretty carefully, as a college freshman who is planning on signing up for Birthright Summer 2012 as soon as registration opens. Like basically everybody else, I think you’re reacting irrationally. I don’t know you at all, but my impression is that you’re just throwing a lot of objections at the wall in the hopes that one will stick.</p>
<p>Everyone has an agenda. When I immediately joined Chabad at college, my mom reminded me that they were going to try and “push” Judaism on me. We both agree that this isn’t a bad thing, but since joining, I’ve found myself keeping Kosher more strictly, legitimately considering becoming shomer shabbos, going to more services, etc. This was all my decision, but they certainly gave me the tools necessary to allow me to make that choice. Previously, I hadn’t been exposed to it, growing up conservative and not modern orthodox.</p>
<p>That’s how I see Birthright. Obviously, they’re going to want participants to come back with an appreciation for Israel. That’s their “agenda”-- but how do you expect your son to make an informed decision about the issue if you don’t let him try these things and see it for himself? It’s almost like you want him to remain neutral on the subject. This is how stances are formed.</p>
<p>"“Almost all” is an overstatement but if you parse through their press releases…"</p>
<p>Now that’s what I call a great source of information. I’m sure it included the several hundred thousand Satmar Hasidim in the U.S. who are just dying to go. I have orthodox step-relatives. All have been to Israel. Not a single one has ever been on a “Birthright” trip.</p>
<p>If it wasn’t for your fear, you could do the same thing you did with the fraternity. “You can pay for it yourself, if that is something you really care about. But I don’t approve of your taking money from that organization to do it. If you take their money, consider it deducted from your next xyz payment.”</p>
<p>(“That’s their “agenda”-- but how do you expect your son to make an informed decision about the issue if you don’t let him try these things and see it for himself?” I could imagine LOTS of things that I wouldn’t want my kids…or yours some day…to sign up with in order to "see it for themselves, in the company of propaganda agents…)</p>
<p>I think parents have every right to approve or disapprove of what their kids do, and to use their money to express that approval or disapproval. But I don’t think the nuclear option is appropriate in this case. (After all, remember that in this case the OP’s son has been propagandized too. Others on this list might like the propaganda, and I think that’s okay for them to decide, but it doesn’t change the nature of the thing.)</p>
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<p>It does, however, appear that there is a right-wing (in Israeli political context) political slant. E.g. note the shape of Israel on the map in the video – compare with maps of Israel drawn by left-wing Israeli sources or most outsiders.</p>
<p>As others have pointed out, security is a concern all over the world. 10 years ago 2400 people died at the World Trade Center site going to work, and there might have been tourists killed if they had been on the 107th floor or rooftop observatory when the planes hit (they were not open yet, if the planes had hit at later in the morning, tourists would have been killed as well as people working there). NYC is still a major target, and I routinely pass cops and national guard guys carrying serious firepower, and statistically the odds are something bad is going to happen again, despite the efforts of both the NYC police, who have an incredible anti terrorist group that does spectacular intelligence gathering and the federal efforts…and keep in mind that Israel has had security protocols a long, long time, they have faced the threats through most of their existence, and for example, their airport screening and security is a thousand times better then ours (put it this way, the screeners in Israeli airports are trained professionals, while the TSA people have very little training comparitively and it is a low wage job despite the importance). Israel had secured doors to the cabin many years before 9/11 on aircraft and they generally know what is going around…and given the threats Israel faces, the number of incidents are very, very low, Israel is safer then many cities in the US.</p>
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<p>Taglit-Birthright was founded in 1994. If you are older than 43, you never were presented with the opportunity. </p>
<p>Maybe the problem is envy? (I certainly felt quite envious of my daughter when she went – back when I was her age trips abroad seemed to be prohibitively expensive)</p>
<p>I wanted my son to go, especially since one family member is often a speaker to the groups. He waited until he was 24, then was upset that he was one of the oldest. He said the restrictions were difficult. He could only see this relative for a short time. BR trips are heavily supervised. The last thing they want is to put American kids in harms’ way.</p>
<p>A recent article:</p>
<p>[The</a> Romance of Birthright Israel | The Nation](<a href=“http://www.thenation.com/article/161460/romance-birthright-israel]The”>http://www.thenation.com/article/161460/romance-birthright-israel)</p>
<p>Personally, I think the OP’s assessment of Birthight (Post #10) is a relatively fair one. Others will feel differently. But either way, I think there are choices beyond the “nuclear option” here. The OP does have financial leverage (indirectly) over the trip, even if it is ostensibly “free”.</p>
<p>Soze, sorry to do this, but I wondered about you and so I looked at your posting history. In 2010, you posted this: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/980587-top-colleges-chosen-jews-7.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/980587-top-colleges-chosen-jews-7.html</a></p>
<p>"I was raised “Jewish”, had a Bar Mitzvah, sent my kids to Hebrew school and had both of them Bar Mitzvah’ed, etc.</p>
<p>I don’t believe in ANY of the theology behind Judaism (or any religion for that matter, as there is most likely no God anyway).</p>
<p>However… when asked to identify my “religion” I put down “Jewish.”</p>
<p>Why?
This might sound silly but I feel a profound sense of duty to honor those that died in the holocaust and by identifying my self as Jewish I think I’m doing that in some small way. I also get “very Jewish” when encountering anti-semitism, for much the same reason.
What does that make me?(besides the obvious response of “hypocrite”)</p>
<p>So what is it really? You are just worried for his safety? I can tell you, I have gone to Israel with Birthright, and I never felt unsafe. Those Israeli soldiers, men and women, were there to watch over us. I met kids from all over the world- it was wonderful. And believe me, I met Israelis of all stripes- the majority of Israelis want peace and want their government to negotiate a settlement. They know that the Palestinians have not been treated fairly.</p>
<p>Wow, Mini- super-snarky article from The Nation. Do you suppose they may have some beef with Israel that may go beyond Birthright?</p>
<p>Well, the author is Jewish, for what that’s worth. And Nation has its own perspective. When I hear Sheldon Adelson, my blood curdles. </p>
<p>Would I think it a good idea for my kids to go on a PLO propaganda trip paid for by a Saudi oil millionaire? No, even if one existed, even if they then would be “able to see things for themselves.”</p>
<p>Israel-Palestine gives me a headache (and I don’t think Birthright is helping the cause of peace.) I think there are bigger issues in the world, such as the Congo, where more people have died so far than Jews during the Holocaust and the number keeps rising. The way I honor my ancestors who died in the Holocaust (Treblinka was built on the site of my grandmother’s village) is to work for peace and justice wherever I can put my strength to the wheel.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, I would never risk losing my kid over this, but I do think there are other ways financially to express disapproval, if that’s what the OP wants to do. (My own kids, even by age 17, would be appalled by the degree of supervision and “guiding” provided by a trip like this.)</p>
<p>The author’s religion is meaningless. The Nation is anti-Israel, period. That’s fine, but let’s not take their word as an unbiased review of the Birthright experience.</p>
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<p>But if such trips were common among young people of your kids’ ethnic heritage – so common as to be considered at least as mainstream as, say, joining a fraternity – would you try to prevent your kid from participating by unleashing the college parent’s ultimate weapon, the refusal to continue to contribute financially to college costs?</p>
<p>Whatever your opinion of a particular activity, would you choose the “nuclear option” because your kid insisted on doing something that you dislike but that falls within the range of actions that most people would consider normal?</p>
<p>I think I’ve already answered that three times. </p>
<p>“The author’s religion is meaningless. The Nation is anti-Israel, period. That’s fine, but let’s not take their word as an unbiased review of the Birthright experience.”</p>
<p>Of course not. No more than I would accept the propaganda on Birthight’s own site. </p>
<p>I think there are nuances what can be said to be anti-Israel. But I wouldn’t want to take this forum down that road, so I’ll PM you.</p>
<p>I have read this entire thread and really don’t know where to start. First, let me say that I have never found that holding money over someone’s head is the most effective way to engender respect. When any of our kids have decided to do something in which we were not in full agreement we asked them to tell us why they were so intent on their actions and what precautions they intended to take to assuage our concerns. And this included heading to Vladivostok, Russia and Samarkand, Uzbekistan, pretty much on their own. They explained, we listened, they went. And they came home, safe, and full of experiences that both their father and I would have never had the courage to pursue at their ages. It terrified my husband when my daughter was planning to spend some time alone in Paris when she was 20, but he never forbade it, or threatened to cut her off. She made some adjustments to her plans to make her dad more comfortable, but that’s what people do who respect each other - they talk, they make accommodations. Threats are usually not effective. </p>
<p>Now as for Birthright and Israel. The same daughter went on Birthright and had the time of her life. She came back with a critical appreciation of Israel and the challenges of its population. Probably didn’t hurt that we have family that lives there and she spent two weeks with them after the trip. Yes, students can extend and make the trip less “institutional”, perhaps see things the trip doesn’t cover and come to their own conclusions about this country, its people and the region. </p>
<p>And as for safety – well, trust me, Birthright is about as safe as it comes when traveling in Israel. My 24 year old son (who went to college in that city mentioned that is home to the US hotbed of crime, Wash U) has decided to do his graduate work in Israel and spent last Monday in the Gaza Strip, on the border, as part of his degree program. Worried, you bet. Consider cutting him off because I think it’s too dangerous, not a chance.</p>
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<p>Me too, which is why I never said that everyone should try everything in the world. Presumably you’d have some reason for not wanting your kids to do these things. The ones that pertain to this specific excursion are being addressed.</p>
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<p>Yes, that’s what I’m worried about. The fact that you need armed military personnel accompanying your trip speaks volumes to me. What it’s telling me is that it’s not anything I want my children participating in.</p>
<p>schmohawk: I’m not sure what your research into my religious beliefs has to do with the subject at hand.</p>
<p>I too don’t exactly know where to start…and I may have missed it, but seriously, should you cut your son off? peace starts at home</p>
<p>two of my kids have gone on the Birthright trip. both loved Israel and learned much on the trip…they respected the perspective of BR, and did not feel in any way pressured to see things one way. Nor were they ever unsafe. I have been to Israel twice and felt very safe both visits. My kids went at 18 and 20, and both came away with a deeper understanding of the complexity of issues Israelis deal with, as other posters have noted. </p>
<p>I was proud my kids wanted to identify as Jews and equally proud they could intelligently look at and discuss all the issues, from their own point of view and with their own younger eyes. There are many aspects of life here in the U.S. that I don’t feel good about, nor do they, but we accept the good with the bad. Life is not black and white, and one of the joys of seeing our kids become adults is sharing that adult relationship and being able to discuss and think about life together. Can’t even imagine trying to control my young adult kids and possibly resorting to cutting them off to do so. reminds me of the father in Fiddler on the Roof…</p>