Should S go into debt for opportunity?

Parents Forum
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<p>

You are not the only one ;).</p>

<p>It is very hard to know what is a financially right thing to do for another family.</p>

<p>Your son will have to decide whether he is willing to take on this kind of debt. It should not come out of your retirement funds.</p>

<p>Again, I think as a CS major he will have no problem getting a job right out of college that will allow him to repay his loans without any great financial distress. If he was going to major in Art History or Medieval Studies, it would have been a different story.</p>

<p>Again, no one can know for sure what is the right thing to do. But I am sure that for some kids a good fit can make a tremendous difference, whereas others will adjust anywhere.</p>

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<p>If you start taking on $15K per year of debt, from day one, you seriously limit your options. What if you want to switch to study something else less lucrative? Each day you stay at a school spending that kind of money, your options become more and more circumscribed. It’s a brutal situation for someone so young to be in.</p>

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<p>A couple more questions, please. </p>

<p>A few posters seem familiar with Truman State University. They have a low 4 year graduation rate - I think US news has 36%, I may have seen as high as low 40%, if memory serves me correctly. One person I’ve spoke with thought the low graduation rate might be result of 5 and 6 year programs?? </p>

<p>Any idea of the likelihood son would need to take a 5th year? That would impact his decision . . . as Brandeis has a 4 year graduation rate of mid 80%. </p>

<p>Son has emailed Truman, must be close to a couple of weeks ago, asking about the graduation rate and about what credit he may get for his AP’s (couldn’t get this info from Truman web site). He hasn’t heard anything back and I think he needs this info to make his decision. I will probably attempt to call them today to get some answers, but would appreciate any feedback on the viability of graduating in 4 years. Back in late 70’s and early 80’s it took me an extra semester as I was not able to get into my first class in my major.</p>

<p>Thanks for all who have taken the time to give me feedback, it has certainly helped me and I believe will help my son make his decision.</p>

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<p>I know that Truman has a good reputation in Missouri, and is relatively small for a state school. It is supposed to be a very “good value” - whatever that means… </p>

<p>The one student I used to know there was not happy - mostly because of lack of diversity among students, and the school being in the middle of nowhere… Of course you can’t reach any conclusions based on that.</p>

<p>It is strange that they are not answering your emails… I would expect them to be generous with AP credits - most public schools are.</p>

<p>By the way, congrats to your son on NM Scholarship! You should ask Brandeis about it. NM participation is almost always purely merit based, and schools that give it will usually extend the scholarship to all 4 years, where NM pays the first year, and they pay the rest (otherwise it would be better for the student to be a finalist than a winner, which would make no sense).</p>

<p>EDIT:
here’s Truman’s AP credit site - very generous, as expected:
[Advanced</a> Placement |Truman State University Registrar](<a href=“http://registrar.truman.edu/transfer/ap.asp]Advanced”>Registrar - Truman State University)</p>

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<p>Kimfred- enough with the advice for your son, this time it’s for you.</p>

<p>You and your H must have done some pretty remarkable things as parents to have raised a kid as resilient as your son. His writing is beautiful; he has a string of exceptional accompishments, he’s got his head on straight (dipping into the college funds to pay the taxes? are you sure he’s only 17?).</p>

<p>You should take a day off from beating yourself up and just enjoy being the parent of such a great kid. We have all had days or weeks or months where we’ve felt that we’ve failed our kid in some way. If only we’d made them stick with the cello; if only we’d encouraged them to try out for the fencing team; (this was me when I learned about a neighbor whose kid got an incredibly lucrative fencing scholarship from some private foundation); if only we’d had them take biochemistry during the summer instead of going to boy scout camp to learn how to tie knots… if only we’d put the money into US Savings bonds instead of Enron stock; etc.</p>

<p>You should just give it a rest, in my opinion. Your son is a person of tremendous empathy and character, with an excellent academic track record, and he’s showed endurance and drive in meeting his goals. Sounds like a poster child for success at college no matter where he goes, no matter how much he ends up paying for it, and no matter what the name on the diploma says. You can guide him towards a decision now but it really needs to be up to him- he’s the one who will live with the consequences, both social and financial.</p>

<p>A tiny suggestion however-- don’t even think of raiding your retirement funds. This doesn’t constitute the kind of emergency that would need retirement funds (e.g. liver transplant). Your son is a healthy kid with his whole earning potential in front of him; you’ve had health issues and you are closing in on retirement. If I were a bank I know which represents the better investment.</p>

<p>Just for perspective, I have a colleague at work whose son is making college decisions now. The kid is a total flake; charming but irresponsible, can’t hold down a job, doesn’t deliver on any of his commitments either at school or at home; he seems bright but lazy or maybe he’s dumb and lazy. Anyway, his parents are people who can spend whatever it takes to make their kid a success at life but they are now learning the hard way that no amount of money can make your kid a success. They’ve always assumed he’d go somewhere respectable for college, go to law school, take the bar exam, and end up in a small firm where he could dabble at trust and estates or some other thing where having great social skills were very important.</p>

<p>They are just now learning that this plan requires several elements their kid is lacking in- deferring gratification, studying, planning and developing a schedule, managing multiple deadlines and staying on top of things before they get to a crises point, etc. Guess what? college admissions are competitive! Grades matter! Teacher’s don’t write glowing recommendations for the rich lazy kid who sits in the back of the room and makes wisecracks instead of learning Trig. Getting in to college actually requires sitting down and writing a bunch of stupid essays and then rewriting them and rewriting them again.</p>

<p>They are frantic. They are both self-made; work very hard with enormous intensity, and somehow assumed that their kid was a late bloomer who’d find his own lucrative path in life. The kid isn’t a trouble maker- no drugs, if he drinks it’s quietly and without a loud party or driving involved-- but he’s just not engaged in any of the activities required to transition to this next stage of life. He’s been accepted to one college which basically has open enrollement (got a pulse and a check? you’re in! congrats!) His therapist thinks he should graduate and get a job; parents are horrified, since the only thing he’s qualified to do is to stand at the door of Abercrombie and greet female shoppers.</p>

<p>To be honest, I’d rather be you than my colleague right now. Your kid is going to make his own way in life and doesn’t need anyone making excuses for him. Her kid is going to be the family #$%-up, enabled until he either wakes up or finds some rich girl to marry and take care of him.</p>

<p>Tell your son you’re proud of him… not for what he’s accomplished but for who he is, and then let him make this next decision.</p>

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<p>Thank you Blossom!!! You are so right . . . we are blessed with two sons with good heads on their shoulders who should do well in life. Thank you for the perspective. Your post teared me up and then made me laugh!!!</p>

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<p>I don’t know about the 4 year graduation rate at Truman. I suspect it is because of 5 yr programs. You should look into that. (Do they still have the highly regarded physical therapy program? That was more than 4 years for sure.)</p>

<p>They were on spring break recently. Perhaps that is why they haven’t responded. (Not a great excuse, I know.)</p>

<p>Kirksville really is the middle of nowhere. That is their biggest problem. I have known kids who left just because of that. On the other hand, they get a bunch of kids from the Chicago area who commute by Amtrak, and seem to find the rural locale charming.</p>

<p>I don’t know as much about Truman State at this point as I will soon. My 10th grader is thinking about schools, and that is one on the radar. I have my own complaint to lodge with them; some of their web sites, particularly those about programs which interest my daughter, are inactive. That annoys me, and leaves a negative impression.</p>

<p>Listen to blossom. You have a great kid, and you have done a great job. No more beating up on yourself. Your son is going to be among the top students no matter where he goes, and frankly, I think that is an enviable position to be in.</p>

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<p>Thanks nngmm,</p>

<p>I really appreciate your help - it must have practically been looking at me in the face and I didn’t see it!</p>

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<p>4-year graduation rates can be deceiving. A school with lots of engineers and other professional programs for undergrads (pharmacy, physical therapy, etc.) will have low graduation rates because those programs, by design, take more than 4 years. Schools with diverse student bodies will have lower rates as well. First-generation college students, non-traditionally aged students and so on take longer because they are also working (often full-time!), have additional family obligiations that take away from school obligations, etc. </p>

<p>LACs and other elite universities should have high rates because their students tend to be able to focus solely on school and school-ralated activities. And when they work, they tend to have student-type jobs and work 10-15 hours a week. </p>

<p>Like everything else in the college-biz, you have to look at stats critically and read between the lines.</p>

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<p>Kimfred, Brandeis is a great school (we were considering it for our D), and I agree with posters who indicate that a CS major will be able to pay off loans after college fairly easily. However, I think there are equally great if not better opportunities at UWI, especially in the field your son wants to study. It’s big enough (I know that can be daunting, but read on please) that he should be able to find some work to help with his expenses, he’ll find soulmates there (as others point out not everyone parties even at a party school), and he’ll be closer to home (not something to dismiss lightly). If he decides to go into a less lucrative field than CS, he’ll be able to without dwelling on the future cost too much.
You raised a remarkable young man who’s going to be a success wherever he goes. Do let us know what you and he decide.</p>

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<p>Another alternative that I don’t think has been proposed.</p>

<p>It’s not black or white
It’s not Brandeis with debt OR unhappiness without debt</p>

<p>It could be: Start at a school that is financially suitable. After a year or two, transfer.</p>

<p>On a side note:

  • I don’t think you’ll hear anyone tell you that raiding the retirement fund for college is a good idea
  • traveling from Wisconsin to Brandeis would be brutal; it would be nice for him to not be so far away</p>

<p>Suggestion: Read the thread by folks who are completing their freshman year, and what they wish they knew a year ago. Over and over you’ll see that they don’t want the debt, and they want to be close to home.</p>

<p>take care - it will work out</p>

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<p>Has anyone previously suggested checking how the loan repayment would actually work out, if the OP’s son did opt for the $15k/year debt?</p>

<p>I went to CB <a href=“http://apps.collegeboard.com/fincalc/servlet/calculateServlet?method=studentloan[/url]”>http://apps.collegeboard.com/fincalc/servlet/calculateServlet?method=studentloan&lt;/a&gt; and made some assumptions about how the debt would be mixed (as to subsidized, unsubsidized loans etc). My guesstimate (and it is only that) yield about $619/month repayment. I assumed a starting salary in the $80K range in his field in 2012.</p>

<p>This would mean that his loan payments would be less than 10% of his monthly income. I am not saying this is okay or not okay. But may well be workable and is apparently within recommended guidelines for how much debt is reasonable.</p>

<p>I think, kimfred, if you really want to encourage him to have that wondeful fit you think Brandeis will be, that it would be better to look at the reasonableness of such a debt load - for him - vs. compromising your retirement.</p>

<p>I feel sure he will succeed wherever he goes; he has shown that he has a great attitude and that is so important.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>I guess everyone has forgotten the dot com bust. I wouldn’t assume that getting a CS degree results in a high paying job. Just a thought to keep in mind.</p>

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<p>My son graduated with CS degree last year. He had 3 job offers waiting for him months before he even graduated. All his CS friends are also employed from day one. There’s plenty of work out there for software engineers, and I doubt it will change in the near future.</p>

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<p>

With CS it’s not unusual to head into a 5th year - especially if certain minors will be obtained at the same time. This is because the course load/requirements for a CS degree is generally much higher than that for, for example, humanities degrees. </p>

<p>

This is something to consider. At the top schools at least, there’s a fairly high attrition rate of people in engineering in general and CS in particular. These people start out in CS, decide it’s not for them for a variety of reasons, and switch to another major. At some schools it can easily be as high as 35-45%. So while he may attend a higher priced school thinking that with the high starting salary most CS grads get he’d be able to fairly easily pay off the debt, the payoff might be much more difficult if he graduates with a history degree or something. If he does graduate with a history degree he might have decided to continue on to law school or something in which case he’s in for a lot more debt in grad school.</p>

<p>Note - I have 2 Ds pursuing CS degrees at the moment so the above is relevant to what I’ve seen at UCLA/UCSD for CS majors.</p>

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<p>^ I think the attrition rate is much lower at smaller private universities with good advising and support. It can still happen, of course. But some kids “know” they can make it in CS (premeds are much more likely to misjudge their abilities).</p>

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<p>I think a lot of us with kids headed into Engineering/CS realized the attrition rate is something to think about. I don’t know if the stats are verifiable but common wisdom is that 50% or more of kids who “know” what they’re going to major in change that major - whether it was Art History, Biology or whatever.</p>

<p>This is the reason we encouraged our son to go to a University with a full Arts & Sciences curriculum as well as an Engineering school rather than a Tech Institute. In our son’s case, he stayed with the Engineering. Despite rough weed-out courses, tough curves, heavy credit loads and all else that goes with this field.</p>

<p>So… fallout from the CS is something the OP and son should definitely consider. </p>

<p>Whether they should make plans based on the possibility of a dot.com bust? No, I personally don’t think so. But, should they look at what that $600±/month debt payment might feel like with a starting salary more like $40K instead of $80K? Yes, that is wise contingency planning.</p>

<p>But wise contingency planning does not mean dismissing upside/likely possibilities in favor of assuming the worst/unlikely. It’s a balancing equation and why God invented spreadsheets. They lend themselves to sensitivity analysis. I think it was ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad who suggested that kimfredson is likely capable of sitting down with a spreadsheet. Which would be a great exercise for him. Run some numbers, see how different scenarios play out. Not every 18-year old is familiar with this kind of financial analysis (are any of them ;)?), but it would be a good learning experience and he can certainly come here with any questions and find plenty of help.</p>

<p>With such an exercise, he might come to his own decision and, if it is Brandeis and if mom and dad want to support it, I think it is not unreasonable for him to choose the debt. Yes, it’s a risk. But risk is not always to be avoided. Blindly and foolishly taking on debt = foolish. Choosing it after careful thinking = not foolish.</p>

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<p>The dot com bust was based on very different circumstance than exist now. Just the percentage of people using computers has increased exponentially. There is a possibility that the economy will tank, but I’m guessing that four years out things will be better than they are today. I guess you could check what the attrition rate from CS is at the various schools. At Carnegie Mellon it’s minuscule - I hadn’t really considered that as an issue. All my CS friends from the 70s weathered the dot com bust including two brothers.</p>

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<p>Re ‘attrition rate in CS’, I should have probably said ‘some schools’ rather than ‘top schools’. I know with certainty that UCLA and UCSD, both schools that require high credentials to be admitted to their schools of engineering and schools that have high rankings in their engineering programs, have the high attrition rate I indicated. </p>

<p>The attrition is due to a number of factors including - unable to do the type of work CS requires, unwilling to do the extent of work CS requires (long hours writing programs, doing math, etc. while some from other majors are lounging), discovering that studying CS has nothing at all to do with playing video games, discovering CS just wasn’t their thing, discovering they actually have a strong interest in another area once exposed to it, etc.</p>

<p>There’s a reason they call them ‘weeder’ course. They really do weed a number of students out. Maybe the experience is different at Brandeis, CMU, or UWisc.</p>

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<p>As far as jobs - my H has been interviewing CS candidates for really attractive positions and has had a very hard time finding the type of person he needs. He is looking not only for someone with exceptional CS skills but also someone who can communicate and is a good manager. Your S certainly seems to fit that bill. I can’t imagine, if he stays in the field, that he will have a hard time finding an excellent position. My H says his forecasts show shortages of CS students for the next several years.</p>