Let me tell you about my experiences with chemistry . . .
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Professors have given up the fight. Those who once maintained high academic standards—making classes challenging and resisting grade inflation—have faced mounting pressure from all sides: students, parents, their own departments, and university administrations. In today’s environment, where a 4.0 GPA is seen as a golden ticket to med school or other elite opportunities, students avoid the professors labeled as “demanding” or “hard graders” on RateMyProfessor, even if the reviews also say, “I learned so much.” Quality of education is taking a back seat to the pursuit of perfect grades.
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Auditing
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B
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Why my know-it-all professor took me to task because I told him McDonald’s served lobster rolls seasonally in Massachusetts.
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Well, he was a know-it-all. If we had ratemyprofessor.com back then students would have crucified him. He was overbearing and argumentative. He loved lobster rolls, and seemed personally insulted that his favorite meal might be handed through a drive-up window by a person wearing a paper hat. I was a 20 year old with a Boston attitude. We locked horns that day. I really didn’t care what came of it. At the end of the semester he actually commended me for consistently speaking my mind. He knew I didn’t enjoy auditing. I was glad to be done with him.
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This is a major point made in the documentary I linked above.
Not only that, professors have to battle the plethora of on-line tools and services that let kids cheat as well as unwanted phone calls/emails from parents (a good friend mine has experienced both) protesting junior’s less than perfect grade. And these things happen everywhere, including at the most “elite” schools in our country.
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The r/professors Reddit is certainly an eye opener.
One of the things I greatly admire about the US is the flexibility many employers exhibit in being willing to hire a student from a not so obviously affiliated background. Employers in Canada tend to be an unimaginative and stodgy lot. Want to work in Finance? You need an actual degree in Finance. Want to work in HR? Ditto. Marketing? The same. You might find the occasional employer willing to stretch their requirements into majors that are adjacent to the field and that foster some of the same skills, but the majority are pretty rigid in their hiring practices. This leads to the oft repeated refrain that students not majoring in something explicitly practical (read professional) will end up as underemployed Starbucks baristas or useless government workers. It’s not so easy here to pursue a passion in the humanities and then be able to leverage the skills acquired and pivot into a non-directly affiliated career. Often times such students need to either pursue graduate studies or at a minimum a post-grad diploma or certification, unless they’ve taken a very strategic approach to their electives to pick up some technical skills.
If US colleges are seeing a reduction in the number of students choosing to major in the humanities you should see what’s happening here. Even more depressing is the wide spread disdain many hold towards the pursuit of anything not Business, Health, or STEM related, disparaging all other majors as ‘grievance studies’ that only serve to produce useless ‘woke social justice warriors’.
On the other hand it’s not like the job market for STEM majors is all that robust either.
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“STEM” encompasses many different fields, which have a wide variety of different career prospects. Some are more positive than others. However, there are dramatic differences in typical early career outcomes for different majors – both STEM and non-STEM. Example stats are below from NACE for 2023 grads, with bachelor’s degree. This encompasses over 500,000 graduates across a wide variety of colleges in US. Note that biology is the most common STEM major, yet had similar stats to English and Fine Arts, with only a bachelor’s degrees.
Computer Science – Median Salary = $102k, 15% Seeking Work/Education
Elec Eng – Median Salary = $88k, 12% Seeking Work/Education
Math (gen) – Median Salary = $80k, 15% Seeking Work/Education
Mech Eng – Median Salary = $76k, 11% Seeking Work/Education
Nursing – Median Salary = $69k, 9% Seeking Work/Education
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Overall Ave – Median Salary = $64k, 15% Seeking Work/Education
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
History – Median Salary = $48k, 17% Seeking Work/Education
Sociology – Median Salary = $48k, 21% Seeking Work/Education
English – Median Salary = $45k, 21% Seeking Work/Education
Fine Arts – Median Salary = $44k, 22% Seeking Work/Education
Biology (gen) – Median Salary = $44k, 19% Seeking Work/Education
The Federal Reserve Bank of NY publishes underemployment rates by major, which it defines as working at a job that does not typically require a college degree. There is a similar pattern. The most recent numbers are below.
Fine Arts – 62% Underemployed or Unemployed, 23% have grad degree
History – 61% Underemployed or Unemployed, 52% have grad degree
Sociology – 55% Underemployed or Unemployed, 40% have grad degree
English – 55% Underemployed or Unemployed, 47% have grad degree
Biology – 51% Underemployed or Unemployed, 63% have grad degree
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Overall Ave – 43% Underemployed or Unemployed, 39% have grad degree
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Mathematics – 31% Underemployed or Unemployed, 53% have grad degree
Elec Eng – 24% Underemployed or Unemployed, 47% have grad degree
Mech Eng – 22% Underemployed or Unemployed, 40% have grad degree
Computer Science – 21% Underemployed or Unemployed, 31% have grad degree
Nursing – 12% Underemployed or Unemployed, 29% have grad degree
Haha!
Yes it was chemistry. I got an A- in the class. I remember really struggling with the electron shell things, s-p-d-f-? no I still can’t properly explain it. The thing is, the professor did not speak English well, but had written the textbook. I had no idea if I understood anything or not as I was teaching myself the material. The most important thing I learned, other than not to major in chemistry (I was undeclared and every major was still on the table) was that some college classes were graded on a steep curve. I had about a 53% average on the midterm and final and was expecting my first ever failing grade. I was very shocked and relieved to receive that report card in the mail, decided I liked this kind of information, and majored in economics instead.
As far as useful majors, any major is useful if the student learns how to learn. I’m not sure I’ve made the most of my degree in the monetary sense, but I value the broad knowledge base, the ability to research, and the ability to quickly learn new things, that my college education gave me.
In addition, there’s the lessons that aren’t directly tied to the course description, that can be learned, or not, by any student, any major. How to handle it when you realize at 7pm on Thursday that your final was actually at 7am on Thursday, for a required course in which you were expecting an A, or what do do when you discover that you left your suit at the hotel for the big performance while on choir tour, and the performance is in 30 min. When you need to teach yourself a new skill (excel, python, how to order a bus for the field trip you have to lead in your first month as a new teacher). The major is something (my engineer kid may always earn more than my teacher kid), but the ability to research, to analyze, to read critically, to handle a major problem calmly, to have the confidence to tackle learning new information—these are not major-dependent.
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This just popped up in my social media because I follow the U.S. Secret Service. No matter the degree, they are hiring.
The starting salary for a person that has a high school diploma is $73,502. I believe any college degree earns you a slight pay increase. The Uniform Division also earns overtime at 1.5x their hourly rate(current overtime rate is $53/hr).
This position provides a host of federal benefits.
This job qualifies for Public Service Loan Forgiveness(PSLF).
The USSS is currently offering a $50,000 recruitment bonus.
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The position not requiring a particular degree does not mean any student can easily join. Several sources on the web mention a 1% or <1% acceptance rate. Among the small minority who are accepted many have unique experience, skillset, or are among preferred groups. An example of the latter is veterans, particularly ones with a CP/XP disability rating or purple heart.
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You really opened Pandora’s box.
I think the short answer is “yes”, for several reasons. First, college today is far too expensive to not result in a well paying job. Second, some majors at many colleges focus more on activism than education, and some courses of study actually make students less open minded and tolerant. (My guess is this position may upset some here - let’s agree to disagree.)
I subscribe to the “Good Will Hunting” view of liberal arts education; if you want to study philosophy, history or art history you are better off paying $1.50 in late fees at the local library than paying a fortune for college. That said, if my MechE son wanted to take classes in painting (he is a very good artist), or creative writing (he writes sci-fi for fun), I would wholeheartedly support him… as long as he is earning solid grades in his major. I would also support an undergraduate degree that is the first step to a career that requires advanced degrees, like medicine or some of the physical sciences.
Most liberal arts and many other majors could be the first step to careers requiring advanced degrees, such as undergraduate → PhD → research and/or college teaching job and career (at a university or otherwise). Of course, like with medicine, there can be a step that functions as an elite-or-bust admission gate (in the case, usually where the new PhD graduate tries to get a career track job in the field rather than part time adjunct jobs or a continuing string of post-docs).
In addition, almost any major can be pre-law.
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Marijuana use disqualifies huge swaths of candidates.
Jack, I take it you never took a humanities class with a world renowned scholar and highly rated instructor. If not, I recommend it. There is a difference between a lecture on the Civil War by David Blight-- a scholar who has changed the way historians understand the war and American society before and after-- and reading a book. Even one of HIS books, as masterful as they are. My life was changed by taking a course on Shakespearean tragedy with Sears Jayne, a professor during my college years whose reputation was “You can love Shakespeare, you can hate Shakespeare, but don’t graduate without taking a course with him”.
I have been gainfully employed and self-supporting since the day I graduated from college. I left my first job to get an MBA-- which despite teaching “useful things” was pretty much three weeks of content stretched into four semesters. I promise you that what I learned with the help of inspirational humanities and social science professors as an undergrad (I majored in Classics- and no, I never intended to become a HS Latin teacher) are MUCH more useful in a business career than anything I learned at a Top 5 MBA program.
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How long ago did you graduate from college? There was a time - before many humanities programs lost their way - when having any college degree really meant something and opened doors. Today, many employers are refusing to recruit from specific schools and programs because 1. the students do not have critical thinking skills, and 2. students bring the activism they learned in college to the workplace.
It is interesting that you bring up not graduating without taking a course in Shakespeare. Today, an English Lit major at Yale can graduate without reading The Bard.
Bingo. We haven’t had this situation arise and it doesn’t look like we will, but we have always been 100% clear with our kids that the door is always open. Career gap, post-college gap, divorce, health issue, whatever, IDRC. Their rooms are still their rooms and we are here to help until we can’t anymore. I would no sooner charge my children rent than I would tell them they can’t come home. I’m sorry and I know this will offend somebody, but we find that to be extremely odd. I made this money, and while I allow myself a few indulgences (like overspending on artwork), it’s there so that I can help family.
Our kids have always known our position, and yet they’re all ambitious and want to get on with their lives, and they’re all doing just that. But if one of them needed to crash at home for a time, they’d still be functioning adults in my book. Being a hard*** isn’t the only way to raise independent adults.
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I graduated before the flood. But that doesn’t mitigate your argument that a kid is better off with a library card than with a degree in a “non-useful” subject. A person CAN graduate from Yale with a Lit degree without taking the Bard- but Yale hasn’t eliminated Shakespeare from its curriculum. So a person can- in fact- study Shakespeare at Yale.
If you think that the numbers degrade a degree- I’m curious what you think of the hordes of students graduating with degrees in Recreation Management, Travel and Tourism, Sports Management. "Cause there are lots of those degree holders out there.
And I’m curious to see what will happen to the massive numbers of CS degree-seekers now moving through the educational system. If current hiring trends in tech becomes a multi-year reality, some of those young people might wish they’d become a top notch “anything” rather than a third rate CS grad. If every relatively new CS program was akin to Cal Tech I wouldn’t worry. But there are a lot of institutions which threw together a CS “major” to meet student demand (and parental demand for a “practical” degree) and I don’t know if Apple’s Genius Bars can absorb all these people. That seems to be the destination of choice for the young people I know who graduated last year into a weak tech hiring market. Hey, you can put Apple on your resume, right? And who is going to ask which courses you took at “Eastern Overshoe University” which slapped together a CS major?
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I would add to that the legion of kids graduating from non-elite business programs with a degree other than accounting who go on to sales positions. Not knocking it, and I’m the guy who always says there’s no such thing as an overpaid salesman/woman, but there’s nothing in the Business Administration curriculum that you need to land and excel in sales. My BIL majored in journalism at a large, middle of the pack, state U and made more money than a lot of people I know. I have lost track of the number of kids who graduated from local college business schools (including Foster) who thought they were going to go out and be elite analysts or something and tell everyone who will listen they work at Amazon. Go to their LinkedIn, and the magic words “Account Executive” shows up. With some exceptions for technical sales, you can major in anything from anywhere and get a job in sales.
But, sure, if I were advising (as I have advised) some kid who has no back-up (to @NiceUnparticularMan 's point upthread) and had to hit the ground running the very next day after graduation, in addition to a lot of other things I might share, I’d point them to a solid pre-professional course of study. In many cases, I advise accounting. People don’t realize how much mobility to you can acquire with an accounting degree. The Big 4 don’t care where you went to school, they only care about your grades. And, generally speaking, Wall Street is a steep hill to climb if you don’t go to the right school.
But, my goodness, there are so, so, so many things to do for a living besides employment with these super particular firms about which we tend to obsess in this forum.
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It’s true that recent CS majors as a whole have had more challenges finding employment than in past years. However, post grad employment stats as a whole are still excellent compared to most other majors, including at less selective colleges. Hiring for software engineer/developer type positions typically requires tech interviews with coding tests and such. They do not just go by school name or courses taken. More often than not, positions do not require or expect applicant to attend a selective college.
For example, looking up stats for my nearest Cal State, which has a >95% acceptance rate. The overwhelming majority of CS majors found work. The overwhelming majority had job titles of either software engineer or software developer. The most common employers were all tech companies in the area (79% remained in local region). General Atomics was #1 largest employer.
I posted 2023 NACE stats earlier. Across the full US, CS majors had a higher median early career salary than all other majors of significant size, and a similar rate of seeking work/unemployment to the overall average. In contrast, majors such as English, History, Biology, and Psychology all averaged half the salary as CS majors and had higher rates of seeking work/education than CS.
A comparison of NACE stats for CS vs English by year are below. The same pattern of double salary and lower rates of seeking employment/education has occurred every year for which stats have been tracked. People on the forum have been saying this pattern is about to change and CS will become undesirable for as long as I have been a member here, but it keeps not happening every year.
2023: Salary – $102k (CS) vs $45k (Eng), Seeking – 15% (CS) vs 21% (Eng)
2021: Salary – $86k (CS) vs $41k (Eng), Seeking – 14% (CS) vs 17% (Eng)
2019: Salary – $84k (CS) vs $39k (Eng), Seeking – 9% (CS) vs 15% (Eng)
2017: Salary – $79k (CS) vs $36k (Eng), Seeking – 9% (CS) vs 15% (Eng)
2015: Salary – $75k* (CS) vs $38k* (Eng), Seeking – 10% (CS) vs 14% (Eng)
*Format changed from mean (2015) to median (2017+)
Students are aware of this pattern, which relates to why humanities majors have been declining. Across the full US, humanities majors have been declining almost as fast as CS majors have been increasing. Example totals from the NACE + NECS are below. I’m focusing on English, but other humanities show a similar pattern. Some have a higher rate of decline than English, such as history (may change if some are inspired by recent political events).
2005: 48k CS majors, 55k English majors
2015: 64k CS majors, 43k English majors
2023: ~120k CS majors, ~30k English majors
This change shift to CS and away from humanities is occurring tremendously more quickly at typical highly selective colleges than the overall average – a different order of magnitude. I posted some stats from Duke in another thread, which are copied below. CS majors have increased by a factor of 10x over past 12 years, while history majors declined by a factor of 8x during same period. Some humanities majors are in danger of becoming too small to continue, such as classics.
Computer Science (2012 → 2024)
26 primary majors → 274 primary majors (11x increase)
42 total majors → 422 total majors (10x increase)History (2012 → 2024)
78 primary majors → 11 primary majors (7x decrease)
99 total majors → 16 total majors (6x decrease)English (2012 → 2024)
70 primary majors → 19 primary majors (4x decrease)
83 total majors → 29 total majors (3x decrease)Classical Civilizations (2012 → 2024)
6 primary majors → 1 primary major
8 total majors → 1 total major
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