So I’m now truly confused about what young women really want on college campuses…MSU closed a woman only study lounge which in today’s demands for gender-blind equality feels like the right thing to do politically and the women are complaining…or is it young women want to be equal but special setting aside the transgender issues?
“Young women” aren’t some sort of monolith with a single defined set of wants. That one subset wants A and another subset wants not-A is not a contradiction.
Thank you for drawing attention to the debate surrounding this Michigan State lounge. I wonder at the Flint professor’s motivation for aggressively seeking its closure.
The OP’s question about college women desiring “equal but special” status really is a jarring and disquieting way to prompt discussion. Defining our nation’s current legal, political, cultural, social, and economic landscape as “gender blind equality” foreclosing any accommodation for real and substantial differences between men and women is simplistic and reactionary. Mashing up the challenges college women (like my 2 Ds, with another D in high school) face with transgender status is just plain unhelpful.
I’ll admit that I lose patience with younger women who cannot appreciate the hardship and sacrifices women have faced as mere property and then latter as second class citizens. Acing Gender Studies 101 doesn’t make them superior authorities to lecture me and other middle age women about harassment, as if it didn’t happen to us, and empowerment, as if we never tried. Putting that generational schism aside, the reaction to the Flint professor’s provocation seems mature and grounded.
The lounge was the wrong solution to a problem. The real problem is a culture on the MSU campus where women don’t feel safe, 25% are assaulted, and you can’t study without being 'hit on." They need to take real steps to change their campus culture to provide a safe, nurturing environment for all students - male and female. Don’t know the solution - I do know that not all campuses are like this and my daughter felt safe in her campus library studying (at all hours of the day and night) - wouldn’t want her to be at a school where that was not true!
I agree with closing it. “Equal but special” is a great way to put it.
The fact that the suit is brought by a professor who doesn’t even teach at the university is just so very wrong on so many fronts. The prof obviously doesn’t have enough to do on his own campus. What in the world is he proving? Certainly he isn’t “righting a wrong”. The issue certainly doesn’t concern him.
If the suit had been brought by men who perceived that this “women only” space as special in some way that was detrimental to them then have a discussion about it BY the students who are involved. The fact that a petition was signed by so many to keep the space “women only” shows the need for the space.
Where is the petition to get rid of it?.. What?.. Nobody cared enough to sign that one? … The guys found another spot to study and seem happy with it? … But some cared enough to sign the petition to keep it recognizing that sometimes women need a safe space? (good for you guys!).
The college didn’t make a “guy’s only” space because–wait for it—guys don’t care.
I’m surprised the university still had a women only lounge. How very Victorian. To me, equal means equal in every way. No special treatment or special spaces set aside because I am such a weak flower. It’s odd in a time of gender free bathrooms to have a women’s only study lounge.
^^Guys are not stupid enough to ask for a guys only space, knowing they certainly won’t get the space, and will get heaped with abuse.
I think it’d make more sense to have purposed lounges rather than gender lounges.
If it’s a “study science” lounge it’ll attract that. If it’s a “put nail polish on and help me wax my eyebrows” lounge (every bit as important, in my opinion, for social bonding), then it’ll attract that kind of student.
The college didn’t make a “guy’s only” space because the study room would be empty. Total waste of space. They’re too busy hanging around the girls hoping one says “yes” when they ask them out. Which is why the space for women exists to begin with.
College says let’s do the rational thing to make this “problem” of unequal spaces go away. A jerk at another university (thankfully not our own–can we add that to potential benefits of going to our Uni?) has a suit that we need to get rid of so we can deal with real problems facing us. The space only holds 49 kids. Nobody on Friday probably.
Options:
- A “guy” space is financially stupid–nobody would use it. Unless outfitted with plasma screens.
- Let’s just close the “girl” space. Done deal.
It’ll all go away. “What’s next on the agenda?” Who cares about the girls anyway? We could discuss “gender equality” all day and …nah. No time. We’ll go with the law as written which doesn’t mean anything anyway but at least “it’ll go away”.
The solution would be to look at the situation and see if there was actually a problem at all.
Then go tell outside professor to go take a hike and MYOB.
@gouf78: I am intrigued by your position that “the law…doesn’t mean anything anyway” and look forward to your attempt to vindicate this belief in court.
@sylvan8798 @TatinG How enlightened of you two to draw the line with an axe to grind. Let’s abolish every all-female sports team, all-girls school, all-womens college, contraceptive health care benefits, lactation rooms, Mothers Day (how very antiquated). Let’s revoke maternity leave protections (how inconvenient for business!) Let’s mandate females use urinals and go without menstrual products (how prudish!). Let’s jail women for making informed medical choices (there must be consequences!) Heck, lets incinerate every Virginia Woolf book (starting with “A Room of One’s Own”) and all chick lit. And just because it disturbs your sensibilities TatinG lets criminalize crustless cucumber sandwiches served in tea rooms stuffed with memorabilia of the British monarchy.
To both of you: Your draconian take on “equal” is mean spirited, oppressive and chauvinistic. Stop holding back my Ds and other young women because you cannot wrap your minds around liberation that distinguishes them from men without obliterating their essential femininity.
typical reactions from any group. In the group they will be divided, among the individual groups they will be divided on certain subjects, which creates the group being divided into 2 new groups.
As far as the professor goes that’s college what I see. Stand for something that you have no clue and no impact on you, but cause havoc. Society today
@Oregon2016: Please explain how abolishing a women’s-only study hall obliterates women’s “essential femininity.”
Sorry for the wording of “the law doesn’t mean anything anyway”. Of course laws matter…
We are a nation of laws (we started with the 10 commandments and then it exploded along the way)
What I meant is someone needs to actually care enough to have the law enforced and try to take it to court. For that to happen and be successful it would need to be someone who has actually been impacted in some detrimental way. .
This shouldn’t be the prof across town who isn’t impacted in any way.
Hmmm, I think I’m on the side of birds of a feather like to flock together. I think I’m on the side of “it’s OK to have places that align with an interest”…purposed lounges as motherofdragons says. I think I’m more bothered that rather than talking about the what is a quaint space with an almost 100 year tradition and camaraderie is now, at least for some young women, something to argue about over “safety” which is a divisive position. They lost me when they used that argument…the particular women involved in the petition are taking the wrong approach in my opinion.
MSU alum here. I never used the lounge and never even knew it existed. I don’t agree with closing it. Yes, there are systemic problems of sexual harassment at MSU but no better or worse than any other university I’ve ever spent time at. But we’re not going to solve these problems overnight and having a safe spot in the mean time isn’t problematic IMO. If they wanted a male-only lounge, by all means, but there is no demand for one.
I think a Flint professor filing the suit is ridiculous. U of M-Flint has a lot of its own civil rights problem. Focus on those.
@gouf78: Taking a matter to court is certainly one way to try to enforce a law. Another is to simply explain to the other party that you think what they’re doing is illegal. Here, MSU reviewed the allegations and determined its lounge was not in compliance with Title IX (also, isn’t it a state school? The 14th Amendment would be an issue). Why is that not valid? What difference does it make whether the person bringing up the allegations goes to MSU?
It makes sense in theory for all lounges to be open to all genders. However in practice you get guys hitting on or otherwise bothering women all the time. There’s no “male lounge” needed because guys aren’t constantly being harassed by women.
I feel this issue personally because my D says every day she gets guys catcalling and such at her. If college women want a quiet space surrounded by other women that aren’t going to try and strike up a conversation, then I’m supportive of it.
A state institution should not have ‘women’s only’ rooms. Should they have women’s only classes? Or women’s only buildings? Most colleges don’t even have women’s only dorms anymore. . (Sports teams and lactation rooms are entirely separate issues and so are private institutions).