<p>I just read the first post and the update. It is so horrible, but there are no easy answers. We know a family where the mother allegedly did something to one of her children. DYFS was called by the child’s teacher after he told her about what his mother allegedly had done. The end result was that the father divorced the mother bc he was worried that he would lose his children. She moved out and remarried another man and had more children in another state! End result is that she very rarely sees her older biological children. I often wonder what DFYS actually solved.</p>
<p>Thanks for the update, dke. Good decision to call tomorrow. Your daughter is great for keeping you updated–make sure she knows that.</p>
<p>She was terribly upset when she first got in the car at pickup, Corranged. Two other girls also heard about it at the same time.</p>
<p>Well, I’m going to do what citygirlsmom loves to do and “READ INTO THIS” too much. There is something definitely not right with this story. I’m not saying that dke isn’t telling us the whole story. I’m not saying that her daughter isn’t telling HER the whole story. I’m not even saying the the “Girl” isn’t telling the daughter who isn’t telling DKE, the whole story.</p>
<p>There is something that is very COMMON among abused and battered people. Usually women and children, but it happens to men also. The common factors are “Shame”, “Embarrassment”, “Guilt”, “Fear”, “Rationalization” and other feelings. In other words, people who are abused, especially physically, rarely if ever tell others in a nonchalant and carefree way; such as this girl did in the first post when she just openly said that if she got a bad grade that her mom would hit or beat her. That is not normal. Normally, you have to drag and pull this information out of the victim.</p>
<p>So, am I saying that the little girl(s) are lying? No. But, since all this has started in this post, has DKE seen the little girl? Has she seen any change in physical or emotional appearance? Are we still dealing with 3rd hand knowledge here. I’m not saying to not believe your daughter, but I’m saying to be suspicious because maybe she isn’t being told everything. Did DKE actually talk to the other 2 girls that heard all this, or is that also something else her daughter told her? I know; “But it’s better to be safe than sorry. The little girls wellbeing is the most important thing”. Yea, whatever. We aren’t going there again. I just wanted to “Read Into” it and the possibilities. If you ask just about any abuse counselor; having someone be so free with descriptions of abuse is usually the last thing that you will see.</p>
<p>So are you saying the OP should do what then…</p>
<p>yeah whatever about a child, so kind and caring</p>
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<p>Unfortunately, sometimes it’s really hard to tell whether the kid is telling the truth. One of my son’s friends told us she had been kicked out of the house at AGE 7 and lived on the streets for 3 years! I didn’t believe it, because logically, how would a 7-yo survive all alone? Still she insisted it was true, and she was a lot older than 11! Much later, she finally admitted it was not true.</p>
<p>Another teen, a daughter of one of my friends, told me she lived on the streets for a year. Well, I happen to know for a fact that, although her mom did go thru a rough time for awhile and neglected them, she was never on the street.</p>
<p>It’s amazing how traumatic experiences can be interpreted by kids as something far worse.</p>
<p>But even though it didn’t happen exactly as they said, sometimes it might be covering up something else that DID happen.</p>
<p>Who knows? I’m no expert but wow, what a dilemma. Sure makes it hard to help the ones who really ARE getting abused!</p>
<p>Personally, I would go on the assumption that it’s true. I’d rather try to help, then find out it’s nothing, then assume it’s nothing and later find out the kid was being abused.</p>
<p>I agree that I’d recommend doing a bit of sleuthing, if possible, before reporting it to CPS. I reported that kid who was talking about suicide and they said they couldn’t do anything without some sort of proof or a definite plan of suicide. They are very limited as to what they can do. So unless you see some bruises, if you report it they will probably just go over there and talk to the parents, and that might make it worse. At least that’s what they told me, back then.</p>
<p>my D was in 7th grade, and her classmate, a friend but not super close, was talking with my D and another friend…out of the blue, the young man asked my D if she ever thought of suicide…freaked my D out…</p>
<p>she came home, told me, and I awkwardly called the boy’s mother…turns out he was having problems and was talking to someone already, but mom didn’t know it was as serious as that…</p>
<p>and sometimes if mom thinks it okay to hit, she may not admonish her child to stay quiet, and some kids tell “secrets” all the time</p>
<p>As for "normal"maybe not “normal” but here you go:</p>
<p>If your friend is being abused, you might see or hear it happening or your friend might tell you about it. </p>
<p><a href=“Parents (for Parents) - Nemours KidsHealth”>Abuse: What Kids Need to Know (for Kids) - Nemours KidsHealth;
<p>so to the speciallist, it is perfectly possible a friend will tell their friend</p>
<p>I’m just waiting for school to open. The girl didn’t “nonchalantly” tell my daughter. She confided in her and made her promise not to tell me because “then you won’t be able to come over to my house”. My daughter encouraged her to tell their two other friends about it, (because she was incredulous) and the girl said it wasn’t such a big deal. Proof? The only thing is the girl’s word and a red slap mark on her face yesterday. I think that’s enough for me, anyway. She’s gone into how her father tries to intervene and “it” gets better for awhile and then starts up again which sounds like a pattern of behavior to me.</p>
<p>So, you saw the red slap mark on her face? You didn’t say that. That is obviously different.</p>
<p>Christcorp, I’m confused as to why you would rather not err on the side of caution to begin with…?</p>
<p>I think one problem here is that corporal punishment is still a part of accepted culture in many parts of this country and among several cultural and religious groups…and it’s difficult to distinguish between actions that are clearly abusive and those that, while unacceptable to many, are widely viewed as acceptable within some cultural groups. In this particular case, the inclusion of kicking probably suggested to most of us that this was abusive behavior. But what if the girl had simply said that she gets a spanking when she brings home bad grades? Then I start to get uncomfortable with the idea of reporting this to anybody. Where I grew up, most kids were spanked, and many (including me) were occasionally hit with a switch (which wasn’t really all that bad, compared to a spanking). In fact, the principal in the elementary school had a paddle which was used on some occasions. In my opinion, anyway, most of the kids from that school and community did not grow up to be child-abusing monsters. Unless corporal punishment is actually outlawed, it seems to me that a child describing corporal punishment is not in itself enough to justify reporting to the authorities–there should be, in my mind, something more to suggest that it is abusive–in this case, the report of kicking was probably enough, and the red mark on the face is definitely enough.</p>
<p>I went to grade school in Eastern Canada in the 60s. Misbehaving kids would have to stand in the front of the class with arms out and palms open while the teacher smacked them hard with either a ruler or a strip of tire rubber. </p>
<p>It may be another generation or two before the corporal punishment culture is banished from all areas of our society.</p>
<p>hunt, you bring up a very good point. A lot of what we speak of here is based on perception. There are a lot of us who were “Spanked”, “Switched”, or whatever when we were younger. The vast majority, looking back, realize that we WEREN’T abused. We turned out to be very successful members of society who have become good parents with happy and successful children. Yet, there are some here that will believe that we WERE abused as children. I have to admit that I’ve seen a lot more problems with today’s kids with drugs, pregnancy, dropping out of school, etc… among children who have little or no discipline at home. Including spankings and such when they were younger. </p>
<p>Now, to answer luckycharmed as to why I choose not to err on the side of caution. For one, and only one reason. The original poster has not provided us with one bit of fact, proof, truth, or any other reason. Her only suspicion is what she heard from her daughter. She didn’t hear this from the supposed abused child. She hasn’t seen any marks on the child. All she has is what an 11 year old, or whatever the age of her daughter, said. That’s not enough for me to start something that could potentially affect this entire family. If the OP wants to change her story and tell me that she saw a red mark on the child, a bruise on her body, that “SHE” said this happened, etc… then that’s a different story.</p>
<p>There are a lot of children who embellish the truth. There’s also some that in spite think they can make the rules at home. I’ve even heard children tell their parent; “If you spank me, I’ll call the cops”. Even my child said that once when they were about 6 years old. They heard this on television and thought that this was the right thing. I asked my child what he though would happen if he called the cops because I spanked him. He said; “They will tell you to stop, and you will have to stop”. I then explained to him again why he got the “Very rare spanking”. (Probably 5 times in his whole life). I also explained that if the police were called, I would “ADMIT” spanking him. And if the police took him away from us, that they could keep him. (I was VERY serious about that). Appropriate spanking is not child abuse. If they want to take my child away, then I WON’T raise him. They can give him to his grandparents or another family. As long as my child isn’t being abused physically, mentally, or emotionally; then no one will tell me how to raise them. At 6 years old, he actually understood the concept. 12 years later, he is a straight “A” 4.0gpa student; advanced IB program; Class rank of #1; very popular in school; starting varsity football and soccer athlete; has been accepted already to 3 very prestigious schools; 2 with full ride scholarships; STILL GIVES HIS “DADDY” a hug every night before going to bed. Still says “I love you” EVERY time we say goodby on the phone or before we leave each other’s presence.</p>
<p>The point is; the OP has no idea what the truth is. ALL she has is HER daughter’s say so. She hasn’t seen anything suspicious. We don’t know if the little girl is being “Abused” or if she is mad at her mother and is trying to get her in trouble. We don’t know if she’s trying to be “Popular” with the other kids. The point is; if there truly were MARKS on her face and such, then even the teacher would HAVE to take notice of that. Again, the OP doesn’t know ANYTHING other than what her daughter has said.</p>
<p>Christcorp, I believe my daughter and her two friends who saw the girl’s face. Who knows why the teacher didn’t see it. The way I look at it, if the girl’s telling the truth she needs help, and if she’s not she still needs help. The GC at school is going to talk to her today. We’ll see. Its out of my hands but I couldn’t overlook it. (and I was spanked as a kid in the 50’s and don’t believe that it was any sort of child abuse.)</p>
<p>dke; I am not disagreeing with you. Never have. If you spoke to these 2 girls who SAW and HEARD this from/of this girl, then by all means. My only question of this situation is that is seemed that 100% of your information came from your daughter. Basically 2nd or 3rd hand information. If you heard this also from these other 2 girls; and they also mentioned the red marks on the face; directly to you, then you have every right to be concerned and involved.</p>
<p>My daughter was so horrified by what this girl was telling her that she pulled over her two other pals (the first time, the second time yesterday they were standing there and told their mothers, too, afterwards) and had the girl repeat it to them because I think she wanted some sort of corroboration or validation. Although I’d LOVE to smack my son “upside the head” I don’t and won’t. She’s not used to seeing anything like that. Its out of her ?? reference if you know what I mean.</p>
<p>are you suggesting that DKE not trust her own daughter’s word about what she saw and heard?</p>
<p>it is second hand from her own child…that would be good enough for me., I trust my childrens judgement to know when something is happening that is wrong and I would be glad they told me</p>
<p>It seems you think DKE daughter is herself making up this encounter…why?</p>
<p>and ABSOLEUTELY hearing it from my kid would be enough, that is OFTEN how abuse cases are caught, kids telling kids who are smart enough to tell their parents…</p>
<p>I never talked to the kid who was talking about hanging himself, my D did, but that was good enough for me to do something</p>
<p>I guess some people can’t trust their own children’s judgement nor did they trust them very much</p>
<p>If my D tells me the soccer coach was calling some girls fat, that was good enough for me to talk to that coach and to other parents, and in the end, remove my D from that team</p>
<p>If my D tells me that she is afraid her classmate is cutting herself, I believe her, and would encourage her to talk to her GC, and I would help her if she needed me to</p>
<p>If my D tells me that she thinks her friend is getting hit at home, that would be enough for me to say something to her teacher at least</p>
<p>i have raised children who tell me the truth, sure sometimes, there are the usual little kid fibs- but they would never lie to me about something like this, and it is then MY job to handle it, and use my judgement to follow through</p>
<p>I have taught my kids to care about others, and part of that caring is to tell me if they know about something that is wrong
,
Christcorp, seems you didn’t much trust your son, and to threaten him with being taken away from you by the police just teaches children to fear the police, not something I would ever do</p>
<p>To me I taught my kids the police were the people to go to anytime you felt unsafe…they were the ones who protected little kids…they were the ones who helped find lost kids…i would NEVER tell my Ds, at the age of six, that the police would take them away from me, ever</p>
<p>I can’t even imagine doing that</p>
<p>It is very hard to find absolute truth in a child abuse claim. Usually the issue is complex and multi-faceted. Usually, the child DOES confide in friends/peers before or instead of confiding in an adult. These peers don’t normally have the capability or maturity to deal with this information, which is why peers of an abused child are more likely to go to an adult than the child herself.</p>
<p>The problem is that it is difficult even for a social worker who has been in this home and observed the family to “prove” child abuse. Just because we have no hard evidence does not mean that the abuse is not happening. If it is happening - and a slap across the face, in my mind, crosses a line that spanking does not - the child needs help. If it is not happening and the child is lying, again, she needs help. Would your stance be different if dke’s child told her that her friend came to school with a black eye? On crutches?</p>
<p>It’s not DKE’s job to “prove” the child abuse is happening. She learns that it is POSSIBLE, that there are signs that it COULD be occurring at home, so she takes it to people at a higher level. That doesn’t mean social services storms in and yanks out the kid. It may not even reach a level higher than the principal. But if we assume every second/third hand allegation of abuse is a lie, then we sacrifice the children who ARE telling the truth. We will, by virtue of only considering cases we can “prove” real child abuse, ignore kids who are being abused. And that would be a tragedy. So we treat every allegation as if it’s abuse - because it COULD be.</p>
<p>Well, my daughter just called from school and asked if I “told” because the GC came and interviewed the little girl in her office. The girl told the GC that yes, her mother does do what she told my daughter about. Apparently the girl is miffed at me but that’s OK…I don’t know what’s going to happen now but I have to say I’m glad I opened my mouth. Like you, CGM, I have in the past, rarely, brought things up to parents. (like when a boy pal of my daughter’s said he was severely depressed and that there was no one he could go to, or when a girl in S’s class was preparing to meet someone at the movies who she met online. She was 12). I hate to quote Hillary but in some cases it does “take a Village” and I hope that if my kids are in trouble someone will care enough to share it with someone who can help.</p>