Small Claims Court Advice vs Nissan

Parent Cafe
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<p>I’m a little ahead of myself…as I tend to do, but I can’t stop trying to figure out my course of action.</p>

<p>I have a 2006 Nissan Murano with only 46,000 miles. It has recently developed a problem that is common (common enough that NHTSA did a defect investigation summary at end of post if you are interested.) They determined the problem exists, but no significant injuries were reported so they did not order a recall. Nissan did re-tool the part and the replacement is sturdier. The seat frame basically has a brace or bracket with a bend or weld that comes undone. This causes the seat to rock side to side, or in some cases to sink in the back left corner. My estimate is for $1400 from Nissan for a new set frame. Some people have had it repaired for $400 or so with a part that is just the bar and not the whole frame.</p>

<p>I am asking for (haven’t had an answer yet) a goodwill repair because my extended warranty ran out only 5 weeks ago. It was a 7yr/70k mile warranty. </p>

<p>Imo a seat is an integral part of the car. I believe there is an implied warranty of merchantability here. See [Implied</a> Warranty Of Merchantability, Implied Warranty Of Fitness, And The Necessity Of Conspicuous Disclaimers | Drew Eckl & Farnham](<a href=“http://www.deflaw.com/articles/implied-warranty-of-merchantability-implied-warranty-of-fitness-and-the-necessity-of-conspicuous-disclaimers]Implied”>http://www.deflaw.com/articles/implied-warranty-of-merchantability-implied-warranty-of-fitness-and-the-necessity-of-conspicuous-disclaimers).</p>

<p>I wondered if anybody had any thoughts about the issue and the possibility of small claims court. I don’t know where I would file or anything. I actually plan to trade the car in soon and would consider a Nissan if they decide to stand behind their product (I’d buy that warranty again though!) I probably can’t and won’t trade it to Nissan if they don’t cover the repair because I will trade it un-repaired and never buy Nissan again.</p>

<p>I MAY be able to find a shop to weld it, though the weld will likely fail also. I don’t know what kind of shop would do it and it would mean I’d have to remove the seat and take it somewhere. I’d like to avoid all that.</p>

<p>Anybody have thoughts? Do you agree a seat should stay permanently attached to a vehicle under normal circumstances. Also, I weigh in the mid-100’s and hubby is in the low 200’s, so weight is not the cause!</p>

<p>Component(s): Seats</p>

<p>Summary: This investigation concerns structural failure of the anchor/bracket on the left rear side of the driver’s seat.the concern is that such failures may alter the driver’s seated position so as to reduce effectiveness of the occupant protection system or potentially compromise vehicle control.failure of the subject anchor bracket results from metal fatigue and causes rearward tilting of the driver’s seat.these failures usually occur during driver ingress but may also occur while the vehicle is being operated.the safety related concerns during actual vehicle use were not validated by this investigation.while the number of complaints of this problem is relatively high, only three very minor, undocumented injuries were reported.the reported injuries occurred during driver ingress, not while the vehicle was in motion.investigation disclosed that the apparent risk of compromise to vehicle control has not been demonstrated.investigation also disclosed that the apparent risk of collapse of the driver’s seat back has not been demonstrated a safety related defect trend was not identified and this investigation has been closed.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

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<p>Minimal court costs and no attorneys needed in small claims court (thought the limit in your state may be less than $1400)–but I’d be awfully surprised if Nissan didn’t have adequate limiting language in its warranty to supersede any implied warranty. And I’m wondering if a problem that didn’t arise until after 6 years of use is even going to fall into the implied warranty category. In any case, I suspect you may get a better result by pursuing this through all the layers at Nissan if you get turned down–district manager, regional manager and upward. Sometimes an auto manufacturer will have a policy --often called a “secret warranty”–to fix a known problem if the customer demands it even though the owners have never been notified of the issue, so it may be worth it to push Nissan hard.</p>

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<p>Though the facts differ, individual small claims lawsuits have been filed against Honda. The plaintiff (a lawyer) wanted to preclude Honda from using a lawyer to defend against the suit. She also counselled others on how to file cases of their own; I think a link is in the article, but if not it should be easily found. The good news is she won at the small claims level; the bad news was Honda won on appeal. It might be because she was urging and assisting others to follow her lead that Honda even bothered to appeal. As small claims court filings are relatively inexpensive and done without counsel (at least in California), and as you’re not seeking that much, they may settle for nuisance value as the cost of sending an employee to defend may cost more than you’d be seeking. [Honda</a> wins reversal of Civic hybrid small-claims judgment - Los Angeles Times](<a href=“http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/09/business/la-fi-mo-honda-civic-lawsuit-20120509]Honda”>Honda wins reversal of Civic hybrid small-claims judgment)</p>

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<p>My thoughts – Sorry, I had never heard the term “goodwill repair” before. From Googling it seems to be pretty much what it implies – a negotiated repair that the dealer is not required to make.</p>

<p>And something along those lines is what I would have recommended. As you say, going to court is getting ahead of yourself. I fully understand your feelings but I have never had any situation like this that couldn’t be worked out somehow among the manufacturer, the dealer and myself.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>Push for the goodwill repair. </p>

<p>Another option is to call a consumer reporter at a local TV station. </p>

<p>We had 2nd year of production ford explorer and the on-demand 4wd would kick in on its own on dry pavement. We took it to the dealer a month after the warranty was up and it was repaired at no charge.</p>

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<p>Really? You can prevent another party from exercising their right to representation in a court of law? When you are in fact an attorney?</p>

<p>Wow.</p>

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<p>We get our cars serviced at the dealership. In the past, we have had a few warranty repairs done shortly after the warranty ended at no charge to us.</p>

<p>But this isn’t a warranty issue or a recall issue. </p>

<p>I would discuss this with your dealer first. They might be willing to negotiate a cost with you.</p>

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<p>Just to clarify,</p>

<p>This is both a warranty issue and a manufacturing issue in my eyes. I am going to try to get it done as an extension of my warranty, however that might not come through. Even if I didn’t have an extended warranty I would expect Nissan to make it right.</p>

<p>There are some parts of the car I expect to replace. If this were an oil pump or a water pump or some mechanical thing that would eventually need replacing I would likely try for the warranty extension (since I barely used it) but I wouldn’t expect Nissan just to replace parts forever out of goodwill.</p>

<p>The seat is a part of a car that I have NEVER heard of breaking in a car. I’m sure it could happen to 400 pound people, but that’s not my case. It’s not the power seat motor, or the heat or a rip in the covering. It’s not a loose bolt that needs tightening. It is the actual FRAME of the seat that FAILS. It has failed in many many vehicles since those made in 2003. It would have happened to me a couple years ago if I put more miles on the car. The low mileage is part of the reason I think it should be covered.</p>

<p>I would complain, but would do the repair if it were a mechanical issue. This issue is one that should NEVER occur and was not foreseeable.</p>

<p>I’ll post back when I hear from Nissan.
Part of this post is just to sort of talk it out because it makes me feel better to air my grievances and also to hopefully obtain some good advice. I hate waiting to hear back on things like this and I anticipate what could happen and what I will do if “A” happens versus “B” etc…I like to have a “plan.”</p>

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<p>I would find the contact info for the President of Nissan USA and write to him, or fax him a letter if they will provide a fax number(sometimes they’re hard to get). If you are a repeat Nissan customer, that will carry some weight. If you happen to be a shareholder, that would carry some weight as well, possibly.</p>

<p>Explain the problem, explain why you find it extraordinary in an otherwise excellent car, (your light weight, low wear and tear, etc, etc, ) and ask what can be done to mitigate the unusually high cost of this. </p>

<p>Don’t rant or threaten. Indicate that you like the product and its performance, and consequently are extremely surprised to find this problem in a car whose mileage is actually below the warranty level (I think…time is obviously past). And that you’re disappointed in the dealer’s proposed handling of it. </p>

<p>This is usually helpful to some degree. It depends on how “right” you are.</p>

<p>You can go to small claims court, but the only time I was ever in one, the judge just kept sending people out to work it out among themselves after threatening both sides. He clearly didn’t want to make a decision and it would have taken all day literally if I hadn’t settled. I’m don’t recommend that route except as a last resort.</p>

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<p>(Devil’s advocate and realist here)</p>

<p>I’ve had seat frame breakages in 3 vehicles (really 2 - one was recalled before it broke).</p>

<p>The seat frame in my car broke and I’m not abnormally heavy or rough on it. It broke due to metal fatigue (much like they’re saying this issue with the Nissan is). However, this is in my 1966 Mustang with > 300k miles on it and while it was a hassle, I never even thought of going after Ford for having a seat frame that broke within 45 years or so. </p>

<p>I know, your car isn’t as old but the principal is the same. The fact is that the vehicle is out of warranty and short of a safety recall, which this isn’t at this point, they’re under no obligation to repair this for free. They’re not any more obliged to than if your rear view mirror fell off, the shifter came off in your hand, the armrest broke, etc.</p>

<p>I also have a 1998 Dodge that had a part on the seat frame break and this broke in a way that clearly can be dangerous. There were no safety recalls for it and it never occurred to me to go to the dealer and demand they fix this out of warranty item (maybe I should have). I fixed it myself but in a non-conventional way.</p>

<p>When you bought that extended warranty, which likely wouldn’t have covered something like this anyway (read the fine print), it was for 7yr/70k miles - not 8yr/80k miles. It doesn’t make sense that they ‘should’ pretend time and mileage just didn’t happen and fix it even though it’s out of warranty.</p>

<p>(Side note - extended warranties are leveraged heavily in favor of the seller of the warranty - they almost always cost more than they’re worth - they’re a bad deal - obviously there are some individual claims exceptions)</p>

<p>Now, there’s a reason why it might be beneficial to them to fix it and that’s in retaining a customer (or plural as you pass your story around).</p>

<p>If you’re really planning on trading it in then maybe just do that but be up front about the issue. If you trade it in for another Nissan tell the dealer you want the full value and expect them to fix the seat frame themselves. Hint - trading in a car is always a fiscally poor way to sell a car and they have way more than enough difference between what they’ll ‘really’ pay you for that vehicle and what they’d sell it for to repair the seat at internal costs and still make plenty of money.</p>

<p>Another alternative on the seat - take it to a very good mechanic and tell him about the problem with the seat and have him evaluate what he might be able to do to fix it, i.e. weld a reinforcement plate in or something, and see how much that is.</p>

<p>You can keep trying the Nissan regional support people as well and maybe you’ll get them to do this repair, it’s not unheard of by any means, but IMO they’re certainly not obligated to do it.</p>

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<p>In many states no lawyers are allowed in small claims proceedings to keep costs low and to settle very small issues. Ironically in higher court preceedings corps must have a lawyer. I’d worry about any small claim judgment being overturned on appeal. </p>

<p>/in our state you don’t even have to be a lawyer to be a judge in small claims court and they expressly don’t use the rules of evidence etc…</p>

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<p>^^^So, since Nissan is not a person, who do they send in a case like that where lawyers are not allowed?</p>

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<p>Sometimes they don’t, “lose” and appeal. Sometimes they file to have it moved to a higher court. Sometimes they probably use a lawyer and no one knows the difference (don’t know to complain or plaintiff stipulates to allow it).</p>

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<p>I don’t see how any corporation can be prevented from having a lawyer. While a person can represent themselves a corporation cannot. Any non-lawyer employee trying to represent a corporation in legal proceedings could be charged with practicing law without a license.</p>

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<p>I agree with you but here is a direct quote from my state’s justice court website:</p>

<p>\Who Can File a Small Claim?
The small claims court can be used by any individual, partnership, association or corporation for civil claims that do not exceed $2,500. Small claims cases are simplified, therefore, lawyers are not allowed.</p>

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<p>I saw GladGradDad’s post and wanted to respond. His post is pretty much in line with my thinking. As far as being out of warranty by time he is correct, but I have read many many cases where they grant goodwill (found a 000+ page pdf of “confidential” reports on <a href=“http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov%5B/url%5D”>http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov</a>). The decision appears to hinge partly on the merits (time, mileage etc) and partly on the whims of the decision makers.</p>

<p>GGD wrote “If you’re really planning on trading it in then maybe just do that but be up front about the issue. If you trade it in for another Nissan tell the dealer you want the full value and expect them to fix the seat frame themselves. Hint - trading in a car is always a fiscally poor way to sell a car and they have way more than enough difference between what they’ll ‘really’ pay you for that vehicle and what they’d sell it for to repair the seat at internal costs and still make plenty of money.”</p>

<p>I know trading is a losing deal, but I was hoping to get a good deal (I negotiate pretty tough!) and in the $10,000+ range a private sale can be tough. Also, unless I get it fixed (welded or done by Nissan) I won’t sell it to a private party, I won’t stick an individual with a broken seat. I figured I could try to trade it to Nissan and only settle for a fair price without being dinged for the seat. Or, trade it elsewhere if they don’t. If I get it fixed perhaps I will try a private sale for a little while. The car is immaculate inside and very good outside. There is some need for paint on one bumper corner, but no body repair to be done…just the paint…maybe $300.</p>

<p>And Dad, keep in mind that there are enough complaints that NHTSA did an investigation, and the defect continued from 2003- through 2007 or more even though they were aware of it. It’s not a shifter or mirror that can be fixed for $50.</p>

<p>They did call me today. Didn’t say much except they will look into it and call me Friday. He did say he doesn’t think it’ covered, but I read the warranty and it is one that covers “all Nissan parts and components…except for listed in the what is not covered section”. It does not fall into any of the non-covered sections, not by a long shot. This is the only warranty they offer with that extent of coverage.</p>

<p>This may hang on how much service I did or didn’t do at the dealer. Sadly, I only did some oil changes and warranty work. I wouldn’t pay their price for brakes, tires or filters. I did the filters myself. Many of the reports where they covered it (goodwill) were where the person did a lot of work at the dealer. With my mileage and lack of trouble I didn’t need much, and with 7000 miles/year how many oil changes would I need? Lesson here, do a little more service work with the dealer on my next car!</p>

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<p>Nissan called and said they will pay for the part. I was so surprised at not having to escalate it to a higher level that I just said ok. If I thought the dealership would pay the labor I would ask, but I didn’t get a feeling of empathy from the man I dealt with so I won’t.</p>

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Forward progress! The goal is in sight.</p>

<p>Do you know what the ‘part’ is? For example, is it the entire bottom seat frame, or just some small brace to be welded, or something else? You s/b able to get an idea of the cost to install it. Sometimes the part itself has a minimal cost but the labor is very expensive and sometimes it’s vice-versa. As an example, on most cars replacing the bottom seat frame isn’t a big deal and won’t really cost them that much. Welding on a small brace might actually take them longer and have a higher labor fee. I’ve taken the driver’s seat out of my 1998 and it takes maybe 5-10 minutes. The replacement of the seat frame will vary depending on the particular car.</p>

<p>I think you should keep trying to get the installation/fix done gratis as well. You can always say that Nissan obviously realizes it’s an issue on their end which is why they’re providing the part for no cost and you think the dealer doing the installation/fix is only the ‘right thing’ to do as well. The worst they can say is ‘no’ and then you might want to escalate it to the regional management (I would). Note that if Nissan, the manufacturer, has provided an exception for this issue then the dealer will actually make money on doing the fix because the dealer will charge back the labor to Nissan but to you there would be no cost. All warranty work is covered by the manufacturer - the dealer makes money off of warranty work which is why they’re happy to do it. The question will be whether Nissan will pay the dealer for the work. A decent dealer will go to bat for you on this and IMO since Nissan already decided to provide the part at no cost then they’re somewhat admitting this is an issue on their side of the field.</p>

<p>Regardless of service you’ve had done, if you purchased the vehicle there they’ve made plenty of money off of you and you can always drop some hints about buying another Nissan and maybe doing the trade-in since you are, in fact, considering that.</p>

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<p>I would inquire with Nissan about the labor costs. The part could be $100, and the labor $500. Parts are usually pretty inexpensive. It is the labor costs that drive up the bills.</p>

<p>Get Nissan to agree to REPLACE the part…that would cover parts and labor.</p>

<p>Now…Having said all that…I guess you should be grateful they paid for something. And as you’ve noted upstream…it’s not like you gave this dealership much service business on this car.</p>

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But the important relevant note I made is that if ‘Nissan’ (corporate) decides to cover the fix, as they’ve already implied at least somewhat by not charging for the part, then the dealership will actually make money by doing the fix since they’ll charge the labor back to corporate. The dealership won’t be out any money and therefore it doesn’t really matter if she didn’t have much service work performed there. Actually, if the vehicle’s been reliable then there wouldn’t be much service work to be done anyway outside of oil changes and some people have those done elsewhere or, like me, do them themselves.</p>

<p>Of course the ‘if’ is a key word in the statement I just made.</p>