So we’re all in agony at my house. DD wants to major in bio and eventually go to grad school for Marine Science/Ocean Engineering. She also loves to play softball and is good enough to have been offered roster spots at several schools. However, she angered the Smith coach by not committing early, and the Middlebury coach doesn’t seem to think much of her.
Smith offered her a STRIDE scholarship and a boatload of $$$ but there is zero chance of her playing ball. The college has a Marine Bio minor.
Middlebury no money, coach lukewarm so no guarantees of ball, but could possibly walk on.No minor but faculty who do marine bio.
Haverford has a spot on the roster, loves the coach and the girls, but the bio department does molecular bio and she would have to take quite a few courses at Bryn Mawr. No money.
It is her decision, tho we are not wealthy and would have to borrow to fund Midd and Haverford. But we don’t qualify for need-based aid.
So if we let her decide and don’t push for Smith, are we doing her a disservice? She’d have to borrow about $16,000 personally, and the STRIDE comes with a day one faculty mentor and research project, paid at $1200 a year, for 2 years.Is it crazy to miss that opportunity?
Hello, Smith!
A few thoughts, money aside:
I would say that Haverford and Smith are stronger in the sciences than Midd.
Taking classes at Bryn Mawr is not a negative. It is very easy to do so and in fact most students in the bi-college will take at least a class or two on the other campus sometime within their 4 years. It’s a seamless relationship between the two schools and should be viewed as an extension of the campus and offerings - a positive. She could also see if Swarthmore and/or UPenn have any classes she might like to take in marine bio.
Your daughter will have no problem finding faculty mentors at Haverford (or Midd for that matter). Haverford offers plenty of student research opportunities as well as campus jobs. There is quite a bit of money available for summer research and summer internships and it pays more than $1200. Therefore, I wouldn’t overweight STRIDE from the benefits you’ve discussed. Being a Quaker school, Haverford isn’t big on having programs that single out certain students - no honors, no Dean’s List, EVERYONE does a thesis. It’s all about community and equal opportunity. That doesn’t mean their aren’t opportunities. There are plenty available.
As long as your daughter is aware of the facts and knows all the pros and cons of her choices, I’d let her make the decision. You were okay with her applying to schools with only need-based aid knowing that you did not qualify for it so I think you have to let her consider all her options once you’ve pointed out the facts to her.
ETA: She has 3 wonderful choices and all will provide a great 4 year experience. She needs to decide where she will be happiest.
Is the $16K total and annually? I assume the former as she personally couldn’t borrow the latter.
I’m not an athlete so I couldn’t possibly understand the athletic portion of this.
However, academically and financially, Smith seems like a great option and the best option for her.
I agree with @bobo44. I don’t fully understand the athletics piece either, but my D is about to graduate from Smith and she’s had a wonderful experience and so many opportunities. To get a STRIDE is incredible. I hope your D picks Smith! But GL whatever the decision!
I think the Smith coach will change his/her mind if your daughter is good. It doesn’t appear they have a very good team this year so could use the help.
would choose middlebury or haverford in a heartbeat over smith if the financial equation were level. Miidd is in the super elite lac division and haverford is close. Smith was but is no longer. Still great especially with the money. It still has cachet too don’t get me wrong. I would t make any of these choices around softball unless they were contingent for acceptance. Also if your D is lgbt Smith and Northampton are very accepting communities. As are the others too.
Smith for the finances. Middlebury for overall. Haverford if she really wants an intellectual journey.
I appreciate all the advice. She’s not LGBT, but accepting of others differences. Smith team could really use my DDs speed and other skills but coach made it clear she doesn’t want her, so if she attends Smith, she’ll probably go out for a more welcoming team.
I would love to hear from others about science mentoring at the above schools, especially for women.
The challenge of sports as a decision variable is that it is really hard to guess which kid is going to stay with their sport when they get to college. We have seen so many, many students who were 100% sure that they were going to be just as committed to their sport in college as they were in HS, and then drop it before the end of the first year. Not to mention the ones who get injured and have to stop playing.
Haverford & Smith are different enough that I would go by how she feels when she is on campus: go for the overall fit first: it is likely to matter longer than the sport angle. .
“Miidd is in the super elite lac division and haverford is close. Smith was but is no longer. Still great especially with the money. It still has cachet too don’t get me wrong.”
OK I know I should let this one go by but…care to explain what you mean by that, @privatebanker?
Middlebury has been making significant investments in the sciences over the past 20 years, hiring new faculty, building an incredible science center, and purchasing equipment that is the envy of many a small college. I believe they recently purchased a research boat that will cruise Lake Champlain. Don’t underestimate Middlebury when it comes to the sciences.
If softball is something that gives her joy and is something she wants to do, going to a school where she can’t do that isn’t a great idea. Although she should also fully understand that having decided not to go through the cycle as a recruit, the coaches may have obligations to players who did (at least for this year) so she should make sure she knows where she stands with them (which it sounds like where she is with Midd.) It sounds like Haverford is in the sweet spot.
These schools all have different environments. How did they feel to her? If she goes to H, can she do a semester/year elsewhere (abroad) in marine biology?
Three excellent choices. Two questions. Do you have other children coming down the pike? And, if so, will there be overlap with years in college with DD? If so, that might enable her to get some aid in years with 2+ in college. Have you researched study abroad/exchange programs for each of the schools? Do any of them offer study abroad with a focus on Marine Science / Ocean Engineering?
Like others, I wouldn’t make decision based on playing her sport. Money would certainly come into play, however. Would she be willing to be an RA second or third year to defray cost of Haverford or Midd?
Based on what you’ve posted, I’d say Haverford. It’s unclear, however, how much of a financial strain it would be. Her $16k in loans is fine - lots of kids graduate w/ up to the $27k allowed from Federal Government. But how much would you personally need to borrow on top of her loans and would you be comfortable with that?
Keep us posted.
I’d be very happy with her at any of the schools, and not playing ball would be a loss for us, too. We really just want her to happy but need some perspective from fresh sources. The money is nice but it’s more the mentoring and institutional support.
Fwiw, I think that the mentoring and institutional support is baked in at all 3. Smith has marketed it cleverly to a student they want.
There are several study abroad programs that show emphasis on marine biology/oceanography - programs in Australia, Barbados, Chile, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa.
Here’s a current student who has gotten involved in marine biology research during summers and also studied abroad in Barbados:
https://www.haverford.edu/college-communications/news/summer-centered-russell-nicholson-%E2%80%9918-dives-marine-biology-study
Another recent student focusing on marine biology including conducting research at Woods Hole:
https://blogs.haverford.edu/haverblog/2017/06/26/what-they-learned-abigail-keller-17/
Here’s a bio on a female faculty member who focuses on marine biology in her research. Check out her PhD background:
https://www.haverford.edu/users/kwhalen1
https://kristenwhalen.■■■■■■■■■■/
She teaches several advanced classes related to marine biology, 2 being offered Fall 2018. Here’s info on a class from this current academic year:
https://blogs.haverford.edu/haverblog/2017/11/02/using-ted-talks-to-assess-human-impacts-on-the-marine-environment/
NSF funding for Prof. Whalen:
https://www.haverford.edu/college-communications/news/kristen-whalen-earns-nsf-award
Another faculty member with a background in marine sciences both bio and chem. Same PhD profile as the other prof - MIT and Woods Hole. https://www.haverford.edu/users/hwhite
FYI - Haverford doesn’t have paid RAs. There are other ways to earn $ on campus but there isn’t that free housing thing. They don’t call them RAs but Customs People and it is voluntary but still competitive to get.
Three great choices!
Does she have a preference after admitted students’ days?
And how does she feel about a single-sex school, albeit one in a five-college consortium?
Might she do the Twelve College Exchange to the Williams in Mystic program one semester (Smith is a member), or do a similar study-away option, to do an intensive marine science program for one semester if her school does not have many marine bio courses?
What about “club” softball, where if she does not make the varsity team she can still practice several days a week and even compete against other schools? Do any of her colleges have it?
And no, it is not at all crazy to let her decide. It is her choice, and you want her to be thrilled with her future college for the next four years.
agree with @doschicos descriptions. As for taking classes at BMC, most BiCo students take classes at the other campus as the two schools have a fully integrated academic program so taking class at BMC should be a non-issue.
The challenge with Smith seems to be (1) giving up sport now and (2) single sex environment – only she, with your support, can figure out how she feels about those. For some kids, the sport is the organizing principle for their health, happiness and well-being whereas for others, it is something they enjoy but can comfortably move beyond. I’d encourage her to really envision life with, and without the sport in school --what would she fill her time with, what could she explore with all those extra hours in her day, how would she stay in shape, use that energy? If she can feel excited about those possibilities, great! If she really can’t picture college without the discipline, camaraderie, competition of her sport, that is something else. And the single sex aspect of Smith? I’m a Bryn Mawr alum, and I benefitted from the commitment to women, and women’s education, but I also lived a fully co-ed experience, taking most of my classes at Haverford. The only single sex class I had in 4 years was my BMC freshman writing class. While Smith affords the options of the Consortium, it seems that campus is still going to feel more single sex than co-ed. There are advantages to that, absolutely. But it is not the community for a student who doesn’t want to be there.
Not last in terms of priority, but when you said Smith gave her “boatloads” of money – if the cost of attendance at Smith is dramatically less than Hford, then that can’t be ignored. While it is “real” money, a few thousand a year would not be enough to influence the decision in our house, but if Hford were, say, 2x the cost of attendance of Smith, we’d have to sit down and have serious, thoughtful conversations about how she feels about giving up her sport and about single sex school.
Agree with @Midwestmomofboys How much $ are we talking about with Smith? If you can handle Haverford financially and if she prefers Haverford (including the softball piece), that seems like the best option.
I’m still confused about the finances. If it is 16K total, she can take that in federal loans and it doesn’t seem unreasonable. If it is annual, that is a lot of debt.
So if it were 16K total, I’d probably choose Haverford. It isn’t a problem to take classes at BMC. Haverford has had some restrictions in the past on study abroad, though — several years ago one of my kids didn’t apply because at that time they only let students go abroad on their own Haverford programs, and my kid had a specialty interest they didn’t include. (Ah, I see @doschicos has checked that out for you and it looks okay!)
If it is 16K per year, I’d say Smith or a gap year to build a new list of affordable LACs that might give merit money and welcome her to play ball.
Are you sure she is reading the message from the Smith coach correctly? Have you heard/seen the communications? Coaches often pressure students to apply ED, but the message is usually that if you don’t, you may or may not get a spot on the team. Is your kid translating that pressure and indifference to an RD kid into something more personal?