<p>Actually, the tuition is usually less! (due to honors scholarships). Private schools offer merit awards to high achieving students to attract the best and the brightest and state schools are starting to do the same thing. Not sure that this is a bad thing. Why not give students some incentive to work as hard as they can in high school?</p>
<p>CGM:</p>
<p>So what? We pay full fare; others do not. It does not matter to me that my S is not getting preferential treatment on that account.</p>
<p>Because it doesn’t give other kids, who worked hard as well, the same value for the same amount of money</p>
<p>If I pay for something, well, I want value…if a student who is a few points higher on some test or something edges out another kid, and that kid gets smaller classes while the second “lesser” student has bigger classes </p>
<p>But if that seems okay with you, cool, to me it seems skewed</p>
<p>I am talking pure tuition, what the school says it costs to go there, and some kids are getting better classes, better teachers, better interaction for the same buck…</p>
<p>Just wanted to point the inequity out</p>
<p>Do you not see that the “lesser” students are getting LESS services because resources- staffing, paperwork, classrooms, programs, are put aside for a few…if those same resources were spread out to the rest of the student body, everyone would do better</p>
<p>If your kid was in a classroom, and the teacher said, well, Suzy gets to use the colored pencils longer than Mikey, cause she is smarter, does that make sense? And Johnny gets to meet with the prinicipal once a week because he is smarter than Bissy…</p>
<p>But I seem to be the in the minority here wondering about equal value for your money</p>
<p>CGM:
If I carry on with your line of thinking, seems to me that everybody in college should get an A. In every course. After all, if they are all paying the same amount of tuition, seems unfair that some kids get only B’s and C’s. </p>
<p>Just wanted to point the inequity out.</p>
<p>Or should we let the amount of attention the professors give to each student be a function of the tuition paid? Full-fare students get 6 office-hours per week, the ones on 50% merit/need scholarships get 3/week, the ones on full-ride get zippo.</p>
<p>That is not my line of logic, its if you pay the same, you should have equal OPPURTUNITIES with class size, access to staff, access to courses, access to getting into classes, if you are an admitted student at a school</p>
<p>Where did I say those paying should have less services…gee,…don’t think I said that</p>
<p>I am saying that ALL students DESERVE the same services, the same opportunities, the same size class rooms</p>
<p>After all the school accepted them, or is the other kids get less for the same $$ just dandy</p>
<p>You have a special group of kids, with the same tuition, getting smaller classes and better resources…when you do that, other kids in the general population will have less, will suffer for it, have less chance for classes, as the “special few” get to register first, for example</p>
<p>Please, when did I talk about grades? No where…</p>
<p>If you look at it this way, the majority of students are subsidizing a better education at the same campus for a select group, a majority of kids are having large classes so a select few have smaller ones, a majority are having to share more resources (ie staff) so a select few can have a lower falucty to staff ratio, the majority of students pay for fewer services</p>
<p>If that is fair to you, fine</p>
<p>A school has finite resources- money, staff, land…when you divide up the resources, and you give a minority a precentage that is not in balance with the number of students, the majority of students will have less per student</p>
<p>If i am paying 42000 for an education per year, I want that value, i don’t want 38000 so another kid can have 46000</p>
<p>The majority of students subsidizes the kids in honors programs by their tuition</p>
<p>It also costs about four times as much to educate an engineering major as a history major and engineering profs at the same school might make twice as much as the history profs. Equality is not as simple as you might want. Honors programs keep some of the better students that might go elsewhere and this benefits all the students by improving the ranking of the school, etc.</p>
<p>CGM, was it fair for your daughter to have access to AP classes which presumably offered a better, more costly education than someone who didn’t qualify for those classes? Why should some tax payers get a better education for their kids than others?</p>
<p>Bottom line is that large public universities would not attract top students unless they did something special for exceptional students (they would lose them to privates who give merit scholarships). So, the big publics have honors programs to try to keep some of the top students in state - and it’s working. Since the academic reputation of the school is partially dependent on the type of students it attracts, the reputation of the whole school increases. I would think this benefits everyone. This approach might be compared to the approach Virginia takes - accept the best kids to UVA and William and Mary - with the less accomplished kids going to JMU, VCU and other states. Pretty much the same tuition - very different schools, class sizes and faculty. Is that bad too? Should each state just have one big school where everyone goes, no matter what record they have in high school? Coming from a low income family, I am a big believer in equal opportunity, but I also believe that there are exceptional students out there. And, like it or not, they have more opportunties than average students (regardless of income).</p>
<p>I don’t always (often?) agree with fundingfather, but here, I am in full agreement. :)</p>
<p>CGM:
It is not a university’s mission to correct social inequalities. </p>
<p>There are tons of other colleges and universities out there. Some have honors programs, others don’t. If you don’t like the fact that a particular university offers honors programs, it’s simple. Vote with your pocketbook. Have your son/daughter transfer to another university. Or - even better - don’t apply to such universities in the first place.</p>
<p>It’s a free country…</p>
<p>Getting back to the original poster’s question:</p>
<p>My son refused to even apply to honors programs. In his case, he didn’t want the extra burden of the honors program requirements on top of a major that was quite unrelated to what the honors programs call for.</p>
<p>My daughter, who will be applying to colleges next fall, is looking for honors programs, preferably with honors housing. The geekier and more segregated the better, in her opinion.</p>
<p>I think this is something best decided by each individual student, and if the student later regrets the choice, well, that was educational, too.</p>
<p>If it helps, at the end of the day it may make no difference. D was accepted into the honors program, and basically, only two or three classes/year are honors, because honors classes are not offered in all subjects. In addition, even without being in an actual honors program your son can in most cases still have access to those classes. The reverse is also true - he will not have to take 100% honors classes to stay in the program. </p>
<p>But another issue is that all the meetings etc. are terribly time consuming - considering that Phi Beta Kappa and other types of honors (departmental, etc.) mean more in the end, it may almost be a non-issue.</p>
<p>I’m a student at NYU and I was originally placed into the Presidential Scholars group. It’s basically NYU’s version of an honors program, and everybody hates it. For freshman year, each student is required to take an honors seminar (which there are few of, and the only one that fit in my schedule was completely uninteresting to me), attend six lectures in a certain series and write response papers about them (which was annoying because they were almost all in the humanities (I’m a math major) and they were at very inconvenient times), perform thirty hours of community service and write response papers (I don’t have a problem with the community service, but writing about how we did it selflessly is just a lie), attend biweekly discussion groups that were a complete waste of time, and do a few other time wasting tasks. In addition we are assigned special advisors, and when I complained that mine was a complete idiot (she actually lied to me about registration) they refused to give me a new advisor because I had to have the honors advisor (when I was told it is easy to do this for people not in the program). Requirements for sophomore year are similar, and I think requirements lessen in subsequent years.</p>
<p>The only reason people stay in the program is that during winter break of freshman year and spring break during sophomore year the group takes a trip abroad (freshman go to Florence and sophomores go to Prague, Paris, London, Madrid, or a few other places). Students are only charged about $300 for the trip. A lot of people stay in scholars specifically for the trips. I personally dropped out the day we returned from Florence (because we were supposed to write a five page research paper during the trip and I decided I would have rather just enjoyed myself).</p>
<p>I can certainly see why some people would want their children in honors programs, and I’m sure there are many honors programs that are entirely worthwhile. However, there are many programs out there that are very misguided, and it would be helpful if parents could see that end of things. I know when I told my dad I was considering dropping out of the honors program, he pitched a fit and said he would have to think about whether or not he would let me because it would, according to him, look great on a resume. The reality is that it didn’t make any difference, as I’m going to Brown for graduate school on a fellowship/assistantship. I can build my own resume, thank you very much. Also, since it didn’t fit anywhere else, all students in the program got scholarships, but those did not depend on staying in the program. If they did, I wouldn’t have left. Just my two cents.</p>
<p>Wow, guess I ruffled some feathers…</p>
<p>And yes, we are looking at schools that seem to not have sucha tiered system as described here</p>
<p>It is interesting how many will defend a program that benefits so few at the expense of so many</p>
<p>But then that is me…I feel that all students qualified enough to get into a school should have the same opportunities and value for the $$$$$, others don’t seem to mind if their child gets less value…guess I am odd that way</p>
<p>What I’m hearing is that not all Honors Programs are created equal, quite the contrary, and you have to examine the one at hand against the pros and cons, and make an informed choice. I really appreciate the abundance of thoughtful replies. (Less) BewilderedDad.</p>
<p>3togo: As someone who truly dislikes the “gifted” and “honors” labels, I really appreciated your post. Special segregated living arrangements disturb me but imho college housing at most schools has such huge problems (another topic entirely), that honors dorms are a relatively minor issue. With regard to segregating high achieving students in “special” classes and providing them a different and perhaps superior education, it seems to me this is mainly a self-selected and self-sought special education. At the private universities with which I am familiar there are special programs/classes aimed at a few students who are just itching to write lots of very long research papers and/or spend the majority of their free time in labs. These special classes are generally seminars and any student, whether or not in the program, is able to request a spot. I don’t think any students are being denied entrance to these classes. All the students at these schools are certainly capable of the work; just not all are interested. I don’t necessarily see the seminars as better than lecture classes… just a different educational experience aimed at a particular type of student. And if that type of student were instead placed in the large lecture course, where discussion is non-existent or minimal, I don’t see how her/his presence enhances the educational experience of the other students. Do you feel differently about this? I am guessing you may be following this anti-honors thought through to something I haven’t considered. Do you think the honors student is getting something out of the experience that we should insist every student receive, even if they are not interested? I believe it is the case at our state university that any student can request admission to any “honors” course. I am not sure this is the case with all state schools?</p>
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<p>The day that anyone who wants to can play quarterback on the varsity football team is the day I’ll start screaming that honors programs are “unfair”. The day that special ed programs for those with learning disabilities are dismantled (or that those who use them are charged) is the day that I’ll agree that gifted or honors programs are “unfair”.</p>
<p>Why is it only “elitism” if we wish to reward, acknowledge, or gear programs to those who are either intellectually gifted or hard enough workers that they can handle the higher or additional work? Or that we acknowledge that some kids may be smarter or quicker than others?</p>
<p>Hi alh … as another poster mentioned all the honors programs are different so I’d recommend people research the specifics of any program they are considering. My basic philosophy is that once someone enrolls in a university they should be given the same opportunity to use the resources as other students and any tiering of the students for academics, housing, scheduling, etc has pros and cons and for me the cons outweigh the pros. </p>
<ul>
<li><p>If a school wants to run a small intense seminar with limited access to which all students can apply but only a few will be selected … OK by me. But a seminar that only honor’s kids can take and even brilliant non-honors kids can not even apply for … even if there are openings … that rubs me the wrong way. </p></li>
<li><p>I’m not a big fan of segragated housing but if they want a quiet/study dorm that all students can apply for … OK by me. But a honor’s dorm that studious non-honors kids looking for a quiet dorm can not apply for rubs me the wrong way. (as do athletic dorms which I believe have been banned)</p></li>
<li><p>I can make no case for preferencial treatment of a class of students while signing up for classes … to me early registration is a slap in the face of the non-honors students (the honors kids get their own classes and also first crack at non-honors courses) (I don’t think athletes should be allowed to register early either).</p></li>
<li><p>I believe am pretty consistent about this … one of my concern about merit scholarships (academic and athletic) is that is creates classes of students.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>I’m not anti-honors … I am pro “we’re all Cornellies” (in my case). Once a students gets accepted to school Y I believe they should all have an equal opportunity to use the resources of the school.</p>
<p>chevda: although in the main I agree with your sentiments, I think public school gifted ed in this country tends to be elitist because of tracking kids so very early. High ability late-bloomers, especially those with less affluent or less educated parents, may never recover from a bottom level tracking in math or reading in elementary school. And it does seem to me that it is possible to create heterogeneous learning envirnoments (more self directed, peer instruction, etc) in the early grades which work to the benefit of all ability levels. I don’t have the sense that it is quite the same with sports or special ed.</p>
<p>3togo: Thanks for response; I think I am in total agreement with you. A student I know was offered admission to a special research-type program at Cornell, which sounded wonderful. It is, imho, a type of “honors” program in that these research opportunities were not offered to every accepted student. However, my best guess is that any Cornell freshman not offered admission would have the opportunity to apply to that program once enrolled?</p>