I know this is a real hot button topic here at the site…but reading this article on Yahoo right now regarding a sophomore at Penn State recalling his standard hazing:
“Vivenzio said, as a freshman pledge, he was burned with cigarettes, force-fed buckets of liquor mixed with urine, vomit and hot sauce and made to guzzle alcohol as part of fraternity hazing rituals.”
I hear you @thumper1 and that’s why i’ve been hesitant to wade into this debate. I’ve seen other letters like this on CC and the response is either 1) it’s not just College X…it’s all of them…so it’s not fair to blame this college or 2) Some fraternities aren’t like this. Both valid points. But, jeez louise, doesn’t it feel like there are lots and lots of stories like this right now?
My D’s in a sorority. It provides opportunities for close friendships, development of leadership skills, and she really enjoys it. I’m happy to pay.
I was in a fraternity at MIT. We didn’t do the kind of stupid things that make national headlines. Actually, most of the time we studied. There was plenty of behavior that 18-22 year olds engage in, but it wasn’t a big deal back then. Our pledge projects were not hazing but engaging in some traditions that brothers looked back on fondly. My class overachieved on one and my kids get a kick out of the story. I can’t reveal more without compromising my identity. It was good clean fun and didn’t involve getting plastered.
Overall I am in favor of greek life for those who want it.
Media loves a good poop storm.
It’s kinda nauseating, really, to hear the glee in the voice of some commentators.
My kids weren’t interesting in going Greek to the point that they chose schools without, but I don’t think that all houses are full of people without common sense/boundaries, anymore than I think all pro football teams are full of cheaters.
Some *schools *however, could tighten up their ship.
I’m willing to pay for my kids’ sorority dues because I was in one and enjoyed it and there was no hazing at all. For my daughters, the cost is less than the dorm/dining plan for DD#1, and just small for DD2 which covers t-shirts and some social events. At most sororities, there never was any hazing. My niece told me that anything that seemed like hazing wasn’t allowed, and that they didn’t even have the same ceremonies I did (same sorority) because it might be considered hazing to sing a song or ‘require’ members to show up for something. Huh?
My nephew joined a frat last year and was frankly worried about hazing, and he was willing to walk away if there was hazing, but there wasn’t. Pledges had unpleasant jobs like cleaning up after parties, being the designated driver (a good thing, IMO), and perhaps doing some other chores around the house. I’m sure there is excess drinking, but not only with the fraternity but with many of his dorm and high school friends. He wanted to join because most of the members are in his major.
I spent a year working as a leadership consultant for my fraternity after graduation, and I can tell you from personal experience that the Greek culture varies tremendously on different campuses and in different regions of the county. When I was working as a leadership consultant, Texas and the Northeast were considered problem areas for hazing, especially alcohol-related hazing (and I am referring to all fraternities, not just mine). In these regions, it was not uncommon for hazing to involve pledges drinking themselves sick. If we knew a university had this kind of hazing culture, we would visit the chapter multiple times throughout the year, often unannounced. If one of our chapters was making pledges drink themselves sick we wanted to know so that we could shut the chapter down. I’m not aware of any Greek organization whose national headquarters doesn’t take that kind of hazing seriously.
But at many universities, especially those on the West Coast, hazing was far more subdued, consisting of things like washing the active members’ cars and cleaning up the chapter house after parties. Most Greek organizations prohibit even this kind of hazing, but as a practical matter, a fraternity’s headquarters isn’t going to be too concerned about it as long as the cleaning duties don’t take away from the pledges’ ability to study and don’t involve active members standing around and yelling at the pledges like drill sergeants.
The one piece of advice I would give to any parent whose child has shown an interest in the Greek system is this: find out everything you can about the Greek culture at that specific university. Call the university’s Greek advisor and ask him/her about the Greek culture and which fraternities have been caught hazing. You’d be surprised how forthcoming most Greek advisors will be.
I had a positive experience with my fraternity, but I was fortunate to attend a university where the Greek culture included a lot of positive traditions, like new pledge classes visiting sorority meetings to serenade them. The Greek system was heavily involved in philanthropy, and not just the throw a party, charge $5 a person and donate the proceeds to charity kind - fraternities and sororities were expected to pick a local charity and work with it extensively. The Greek system at my university wasn’t for everyone, of course, but it had a lot to offer.
This wasn’t true at all of the schools I visited while working for my fraternity. At some schools (including Penn State), the hazing culture was downright scary, and we shut our Penn State chapter down for four years based on what I saw. There were some schools where hazing wasn’t really a big problem, but the Greek system was nothing more than an excuse to get plastered every Friday and Saturday night. There were also plenty of schools with healthy Greek cultures that reminded my of my Greek experience.
Hazing is outlawed - nobody joins a fraternity thinking they will be burned with cigarettes. You go through rush, meet the current brothers, get together a few times, then decide whether you want to hang out with these guys for the next 3 1/2 years. Pledging and initiation rituals are not discussed. Contrary to what he is saying, it is exceedingly easy to walk away from the process at any time.
I was in a fraternity 30 years ago. Our Hell Week consisted of late nights, early mornings, carrying a pledge paddle and wearing a suit during the day, and sleeping in the living room at the house. We got ceremonially paddled lightly, once, after initiation. I would not trade those days for anything. Given that I was at an 85% male tech school skewed my experience a bit.
Even with that, I discouraged my kids from joining because of cost and the pressure to make academics secondary to group activities.
I didn’t see any correlation between participation levels and hazing. On the other hand, chapters with strong alumni involvement were far less likely to engage in dangerous hazing (i.e. anything more serious than cleanup duty). I would say the same thing about schools with a strong Greek advisor - one who wouldn’t hesitate to pick up the phone and call fraternity headquarters about a problem chapter. And, as I noted earlier, serious hazing was much more prevalent in some regions of the Country.
One side note. People often suggest eliminating the pledge period as a means of combatting hazing. The only fraternity at my undergraduate university that had a reputation for serious hazing was Phi Sigma Kappa, a fraternity that didn’t have a pledge period.
I love that quote. Goodness how many times do we have to open threads like this. There are all kinds of frats and sororities all across the nation. Even if they have the same national affiliation they aren’t the same. My older two went to colleges without Greek life, but my youngest did and I would have totally supported him joining Triangle, an engineering fraternity…totally supported it. He chose not to and that’s OK also.
It “feels” like you hear about the bad stuff, because you do. The mass media loves, loves an incendiary story…that’s not hard to understand - it IS a poop storm.
Because both parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins had very positive experiences being in their respective houses.
All of our kids joined at our urging and expense; it is an excellent way to meet friends who share common interests (which generally means being social and caring about personal presentation). One D was never a “joiner” or had a big friend group, so I thought it might force her into doing something socially she would enjoy. She was generally lukewarm about the experience, but made one really good friend (in addition to her several non-sorority friends) and that to me, made it worth it. Other D loved, loved, loved everything about her house and held offices and planned all the events and made many really good friends she still lives with/visits with regularly. S was excited to join but then became very disappointed because with all the stultifying rules and oversight it was not at all as fun as he expected. But he has made at least six really good friends out of the experience so far, and is not done yet.
NO hazing was permitted at all at any of their houses, and this was very closely monitored by local alum advisors.
I wouldn’t just because I think that if a student wants to participate in these sorts of extras, they should work to pay for it themselves. It doesn’t matter to me if it’s a frat or some other academically unnecessary extra curricular activity.
I am just of the mindset that adult children should pay for their own fun.
My D is thinking about rushing this fall. I checked out the NPC website for the school and the school’s policy, and both stress that hazing is prohibited. It seems like the Greek system at this school stresses academics as a priority. I’ve also had many conversations with my D over the years every time one of these crazy hazing stories come up, always with the message that it’s nuts and those kids should have walked away.
So given those circumstances I’m perfectly fine with paying the dues if my D decides to join a sorority. In a large public university where students can get lost, it can be a good way to have a social circle for support.