Speaking of 18-year old boys making potentially unsafe plans

Parent Cafe
1

<p>My son and I are going to be in Rome from July 28 through August 9. It’s his graduation present, and we’re both very excited about it. I know there’ll be plenty for us to do, since we’re both huge enthusiasts about visiting museums, and churches, and looking at ancient and Renaissance art, and walking through interesting neighborhoods. It should be lots of fun.</p>

<p>However.</p>

<p>Keep in mind that my son doesn’t speak Italian, has never been to Rome before, knows nothing about the metro system there or what neighborhoods are safe, didn’t grow up in a city and isn’t really quite as street-smart as he thinks he is, has never had more than two glasses of wine or champagne (and has never had any “hard liquor” whatsoever), and has zero experience with “men.” And has never spent time in a gay bar, anywhere.</p>

<p>However, he is 18.</p>

<p>And he recently discovered that the drinking age in Italy is apparently only 16, and that he can go into bars if he wants to.</p>

<p>So he’s announced to me that he plans to find out where various gay bars are in Rome, figure out how to get to them on the metro, and go out at night, after dinner (by himself, of course!), on the metro, to different gay bars, and maybe order something to drink. And look at Italian guys. And maybe dance. No, he says, he’s not going to get drunk. (Not that he really has enough experience to know his limits.) And he promises that he’s not going to go off with anyone to have sex in an alley. </p>

<p>And I do trust him not to do anything like that.</p>

<p>He also says he’ll be home by 12 or 1 every night, so he’ll be able to get up in time for us to get an early start every morning.</p>

<p>Still, I’m concerned, for all the reasons I mentioned above. He’s way more vulnerable than he thinks he is. Not just because he’s so tiny, either (barely 5’1", about 112 pounds). Besides, he isn’t used to riding the subway by himself at night in New York, let alone Rome!</p>

<p>And he tends to be a little absent-minded, too – not the kind of kid who’s always hyper-aware of his surroundings.</p>

<p>When I expressed some mild disapproval of this plan (OK, it wasn’t so mild!), his response was, basically, I’m 18, I’m allowed to do what I like at night, you <em>have</em> to let me, and you can’t stop me anyway. </p>

<p>Of course, he didn’t believe my threats to cancel the trip. Nor was he particularly impressed when I pointed out that I’m paying for this trip, and when he makes his own money and pays for his own vacations, he can do whatever he likes.</p>

<p>What am I supposed to do, lock him in the bathroom of the hotel room every night so he can’t leave?</p>

<p>I’m tempted to follow him wherever he goes, and wait outside!</p>

<p>Am I being overprotective (as he claims, naturally), by being so concerned about this? I know he finds the potential freedom of being 18 and on his own in Rome at night to be completely intoxicating, but, I’m worried.</p>

<p>At least I did buy one of those Italian cellphones, so I could make sure he takes it with him if he does go out by himself at night, at all.</p>

2

<p>Make sure he carries a card with the address and telephone number of your hotel in every city you visit so he can take a taxi back if he gets lost! My nephew visited Florence and couldn’t find his way back to his hotel one night and could not find anyone who spoke English either!</p>

3

<p>The only thing that I was able to do was to get the appropriate insurances, including life insurance, for the kid as soon as he turned 18, and hope that we and he would never have to use it. Although he was not an at-risk kid, I did realize that college would be a new experience especially a distance college for which we would not have oversight.</p>

<p>No one wants to think about insurance, however, for the dollars that we spent for k-12 and future college college costs, insurances was a tiny fraction of these costs. Further, I was able to guarantee future insurability for him, and based on his future expected income, the insurances would be even a smaller fraction of his income.</p>

4

<p>It troubles me that he plans to leave his mother alone in a foreign city at night so that he can explore the scene.</p>

<p>It troubles me that he apparently believes that he is entitled to do whatever he wants on a trip with you regardless of what you say or how it makes you feel.</p>

<p>18 alone at night in a foreign city where my son or daughter doesn’t speak the language, with his/her expressed intent of seeking out bars with romantic scenes, would worry me too.</p>

5

<p>Donna, I know this is a tough situation, because gay teens don’t really have good role models near their own age to feel their way through what is appropriate & not appropriate, and their parents can’t share information based on experience. My daughter had several gay male friends when she is was in high school, and they would come to me for advice about dating & relationships – I was at a loss but would essentially answer their questions the same as I would for my daughter. That is, in the gay context, the same rules & concerns would apply for an 18 year old boy going to bars and meeting men as for an 18 year old girl going to bars and meeting men. (I don’t know if this is right or wrong, but it is the only thing I could come up with at the time, and the age 15+ boys who were asking for my thoughts seemed to accept the “wise” advice I dispensed using that personal rule of thumb). </p>

<p>My d. also spent time abroad at age 16… in a country where she could drink at that age … and yes, she did go to bars and meet men, but she was never alone – I’m sure she always had a female friend with her. (no problems, the men she met were all perfect gentlemen but also very attentive, so she had a wonderful time). </p>

<p>So rule #1: A young person going to a bar or pub should go with a buddy. Your son will probably balk – since you aren’t bringing along a travel companion – but I think that is something that makes sense. I hope your son has chosen a gay-friendly college where he will be able to meet other young men in a safe context; until then, the trip to Rome with mom is probably not the best place to start testing out the gay scene. I think you are just going to have to sit down and discuss agreed rules & limits before you go… and if he can’t agree to that, then maybe the trip is not a good idea.</p>

<p>In any case, here is a web sites that provide info about the gay bar scene in Rome:
[Gay</a> in Rome](<a href=“http://www.pinkagenda.com/travel/rome.php]Gay”>http://www.pinkagenda.com/travel/rome.php)</p>

<p>And here is an safer event that your son might enjoy:</p>

<p>Gay Village 2008: Thursday, Friday and Saturday, 26 June – 20 September.
Annual open-air gay summer event with movies, shops, music, performances, parties and more.
Entrance free 20:00 – 21:30, after: on Thursdays 7 € (incl. 1 drink), on Fridays and Saturdays 13 € (incl. 1 drink).
@ Parco del Ninfeo, Via delle 3 Fontane all’Eur (Metro B: Magliana)</p>

<p>Link: [GayVillage</a> 2008 | GayVillage](<a href=“http://gayvillage.it/gayvillage]GayVillage”>http://gayvillage.it/gayvillage)</p>

<p>(This looks like an open, outdoor event every weekend that is probably more like the Gay Pride Festival we have in San Francisco – this also looks like a thing that you could go to yourself to kind of scout things out. I honestly don’t know what it would be like, but here in SF there Gay Pride festivities attract men, women & children of all ages, so I’ve never felt out of place or self-conscious as a hetero female attending for the fun).</p>

6

<p>ADad, I tend to agree. If I were taking my son/daughter to Europe as a graduation present I wouldn’t expect to hear them tell me where they feel they are entitled to go and what they think they are entitled to do. </p>

<p>Come on now…An 18 year old is much more vulnerable in a foreign country than at home. </p>

<p>Sorry DonnaL, not sure where you are coming from.</p>

7

<p>I would not let him off my sight, if I were you. Rome at night is very shaddy. I was pick-pocketed when I was in Rome in broad daylight. Luckily I only had some cash and my student ID card in my wallet. Who on earth would pick-pocket a 15yo girl? The subway was worse compare to NYC’s. There were just so many people crammed into each train. I had to run to a polizia to avoid some shaddy characters walking toward me. Roman Holiday, Rome is not. The cabbies were particularly shaddy. They just drove around and around.</p>

8

<p>Basically, I’m just hoping that in the next four weeks I can dampen his enthusiasm for this. And maybe persuade him that it just isn’t a good idea. (The only conversation we’ve had so far about it was immediately after he came up with this bright idea. My promptly getting upset was not the most productive reaction, I think. So there’s still time to wear him down. He usually responds to reason eventually. And he is a good kid, and in his whole life he’s never actually done anything I’ve forbidden him to do, so far as I know. So far.)</p>

<p>Perhaps I can agree to let him go to someplace like this <em>once,</em> maybe someplace within walking distance of the hotel if possible (after I check out the neighborhood!), with a strict warning that if he isn’t home by a certain time, I’m going to go wherever it is myself, go inside, and drag him out!</p>

<p>Plus, no way I’m letting him take the metro at night. I’ll give him money for a taxi. </p>

<p>The Gay Village thing sounds interesting; thanks!</p>

<p>And if he does go anyplace like this, I’m going to have to give him a crash course in how to be safe at bars, right down to basic stuff like not letting anyone buy a drink for you, because you never know what’s been added to it. Etc.</p>

9

<p>The crash course in bar safety is probably a good idea anyway. You should assume that at college he will go to bars, even if underage. </p>

<p>From the sites that I linked to above, I got the sense that the gay bar scene in Rome is iffy in any case – this “Gay Village” event seems geared providing a way for gays to be more out in a city where they tend to be closeted.</p>

10

<p>More Gay/Rome travel links:
[Three</a> Gay Days: Rome – Queer Lesbian Gay Travel – Gay.com](<a href=“http://www.gay.com/travel/premium/?sernum=1051]Three”>http://www.gay.com/travel/premium/?sernum=1051)</p>

<p>(Among other things, its pretty obvious that your son won’t get into any bar anywhere without an Arcigay membership card – see: [Arcigay</a> Roma il portale dei GAY su Roma](<a href=“http://www.arcigayroma.it%5DArcigay”>http://www.arcigayroma.it) )</p>

<p>Arcigay has a youth group that meets on Tuesday afternoons - see:
[Arcigay</a> Roma il portale dei GAY su Roma](<a href=“http://www.arcigayroma.it/ArcigayRoma/index.asp?id=47&sezione=Attivit�]Arcigay”>http://www.arcigayroma.it/ArcigayRoma/index.asp?id=47&sezione=Attivit�) - it is mixed gender, geared to both lesbians & gays ages 16-27 - so this also looks like a safe place for your son to meet gay young people. </p>

<p>Here’s a mixed gay/lesbian bar that is also a cafe open to anyone during the day -
[||</a> COMING OUT - GAY BAR - GLBT ||](<a href=“http://www.comingout.it/]||”>http://www.comingout.it/)
Mixed gender bars & clubs tend to have a safer feel to them - and it would be possible for you to go to a place like this with your son early in the evening to check it out. You could agree to sit separately, so it’s not obvious to everyone that he is there with his mom – but that way you would get a feel for the place before he ventures there on his own.</p>

<p>See: <a href=“http://www.nighttours.com/rome/gayguide/map.php[/url]”>http://www.nighttours.com/rome/gayguide/map.php&lt;/a&gt; to find this on a map. </p>

<p>And here is a “gay street” in Rome, a block with gay-friendly shops and bars that is closed to traffic 3 days a week – [Gay</a> street opens in Rome - USATODAY.com](<a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/news/topstories/2007-08-03-2732013343_x.htm]Gay”>http://www.usatoday.com/news/topstories/2007-08-03-2732013343_x.htm) – maybe this is a place you and your son could visit during the day? (I assume it’s the Roman equivalent of the Castro district in San Francisco).</p>

<p>I’m thinking/hoping that if you can include some gay-friendly destinations in your travel plans, you will be showing your son that you respect and care about his needs, and then perhaps it will be easier to get across that the boundaries stem from general safety concerns and not from any sort of disapproval of his lifestyle.</p>

<p>And here is a gay owned limo service that also can arrange private tours – see:
[Only</a> Gay Owned Sightseeing, Limo Service in Rome](<a href=“威廉希尔中文网站-威廉希尔中国官网”>http://www.gaylimorome.com/)
I don’t know what your budget is, but maybe you could email them and explain your dilemma. They might have some good ideas & suggestions.</p>

11

<p>This reminds me of being in Bangkok with my 17 year old son, who wanted to go to the bar area at night. Patpong Road, if you know Bangkok. I rapidly said, “I’m going too” and did. </p>

<p>This trip is for both of you. You’d not go out to bars on this trip without him, I’d hope. And your worry, should he go out, would lend a pall to the adventure. If he can’t figure out how you might be able to do something of this nature together, maybe the trip should be cancelled. the purpose of the trip is relaxation for both, not license for him, anxiety for you. Reschedule after some of this is out of his system. </p>

<p>I’d suggest that the ‘scene’ might be better checked out on his own, in a city a bit more gay friendly, ability to drink or not. One not famous for pick pockets. </p>

<p>But the above links, to visit together, might be interesting and easily accessible, as well as affirming to him and his emerging identitiy. </p>

<p>From what i’ve heard about the daily schedule of most in Rome, dining being so late, would he be capable of walking out of an exciting scene when the night was relatively young? Or would he stay longer, worrying you more? </p>

<p>Best wishes! Your son is a lucky guy.</p>

12

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<p>Hopefully your prejudice is city-dependent and not based on your opinion of public transport. :stuck_out_tongue: In Singapore we schoolchildren travel home late on public transport all the time (for several reasons – government language classes, tuition, ECs and sports, [wholesome] parties with friends, etc.)</p>

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<p>Almost all pickpocketing is done in broad daylight. That’s the only logical time to do it - when there’s lots of people out and about, hustle and bustle, and so on. And a 15 year old girl is a prime target, naturally. The best targets are the ones who are most unlikely to know about pickpocketing strategies - young, naive tourists are good targets.</p>

14

<p>Well, I served a precautionary tale. </p>

<p>Can OP and her son sneak to Amsterdam for a day or two? The city is very gay friendly. I saw rainbow flags everywhere. People also speak almost perfect English so OP’s son can explore his heart out.</p>

15

<p>great lakes mom, your post reminds me that my son spent 3 days in Pattaya Beach ("sex capital of the world) at age 17… and he went into plenty of bars there, with no parents around. But he was traveling with a group of kids, so I think he fit within my “go with a buddy” rule expressed in post #6. Anyway… I didn’t find out about it until a few months later, when my son decided to write about his experiences there for his college applications.</p>

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<p>DonnaL,</p>

<p>I am not sure if your posts are genuine, but if they are I think the proper response is, “Why are you being so foolish?”</p>

<p>Just because your son says he is gay is no reason to cater to and encourage his sexual escapades. If instead he were a 5’1", 115 pound female who wanted to go unaccompanied into bars in Rome for a week to find men you would hopefully not allow it.</p>

<p>As you do not mention it, I assume that there may be no father-figure in your son’s life who can tell him he is being completely unreasonable. If your son moves away and goes off on some wild adventure, there is little you can do to stop it. But by paying for his travel, hotel room, etc. you are condoning his manipulation of you and accepting responsibility for him.</p>

<p>You wrote, “Of course, he didn’t believe my threats to cancel the trip.” Why is that “of course”? Has he never been held accountable for any threats or actions, no matter how irresponsible? I would cancel the trip until / unless your son grows up emotionally.</p>

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<p>“Explore those bars on your own time! This is our vacation!”</p>

<p>I think if you framed it in a way other than safety (a major roll-our-eyes issue, even when a parent’s worry is justified), he might be more apt to take your suggestion.</p>

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<p>galoisien, I think the issue with the metro is not even city-specific. Singapore students may take the subway all the time, but an 18 year old, unfamiliar with the system, the neighborhoods, the routes and the language is a different story altogether, even in Singapore.</p>

<p>DonnaL, if you were traveling with your 18 year old daughter who said this to you, would there be any doubt as to the outcome of the discussion? Would you let her go? Then why would you let him? And his physical size is irrelevant - I wouldn’t let him go even if he were 6’2" and 250 lbs. It’s not his size, although that may increase the danger somewhat, it’s his immaturity and lack of experience. How does he intend to “meet men” if he can’t speak to them? What else does he think they’ll want from him, since it’s obviously not scintillating conversation?</p>

<p>Is there a risk that your son will say, OK, Mom, I won’t do it, and then wait until you’re in Rome to do it anyway? If there is, I’d cancel the trip in a heartbeat. If not, if he will really keep his word, don’t go unless and until he gives it to you. You may lose a few hundred or even a few thousand dollars, but better than being featured on the international news.</p>

19

<p>Jeepers. Rome is very nice – no more “shaddy” than any other big city, and a good deal less than most. You can walk almost anywhere you want to go. This whole thing about the metro may be a big nothing. They also have lots of surface busses, and even that modern innovation known as the “taxi”. People are out late in the summer – one of the nicest things there is that all of the restaurants essentially move outdoors for the summer. Lots of people speak enough English to help a lost tourist.</p>

<p>Are there dangers? Of course. Should you carry all of your money in a wallet in your pocket, or have unsafe sex? No. Should you get plastered in a bar for the first time in your life and hook up with random strangers? Probably not that, either, although I would guess that lots of people have done it without long-term adverse consequences.</p>

<p>Should you do it while your mom is back in the hotel room? That’s between mother and son.</p>

<p>I don’t get all the cluck-clucking here. Chedva, it’s obvious the whole idea offends you; no one would expect you to go along with it. It’s just as obvious that the OP has a completely different reaction. Why should she cancel the trip just because you would?</p>

20

<p>I don’t feel the least bit offended, but this scenario makes my blood run cold. The boy might as well have a target on his back.</p>