<p>It seems to me that the whole point of this was to be a mother-and-son trip. So it’s not appropriate for son to be announcing that he will be spending his evenings without mom. Just as it would be inappropriate for her to announce that she’s leaving him in the hotel to go out drinking with men.</p>
<p>The safety issue for me is HUGE. Unfamiliar city. Don’t speak the language. Not used to public transit. Physically a small person. And I’m sorry, but everyone I know who has been to Rome has reported that it is not among the safest/cleanest places they’ve ever been. And there’s the ALONE factor - not even a buddy along!</p>
<p>I’d have a talk with DS. The trip is about spending time together. If that’s not what he wants to do (he’s 18, it’s understandable!) then cancel the trip. </p>
<p>There is no way I’d let an 18 year old who doesn’t speak the language wander around a foreign city at night ALONE. </p>
<p>I don’t buy middsmith’s argument that he can do whatever he wants at college. At college he’ll speak the language and have buddies around. This is a different situation entirely.</p>
<p>Either the two of you get on the same page about the purpose of the trip and the guidelines (your money, your guidelines!) or cancel the trip. Don’t even bother to threaten, just cancel it and do some fun mom-son stuff closer to home.</p>
<p>The boy is 18. If he wants to go cruising in Rome, he can certainly do so on his dime and time. I think it is really an “in your face” rude thing to tell your mother who is taking you on a mother/son, trip that you want to go out cruising. Even with the assurance (ha, ha) that you are not going to “do anything”. Any mother would be sitting in the hotel room worrying. If anything terrible should happen it would be an additional load on Mom as well. It’s not the fact that he wants to go out that is the issue. It’s the circumstances under which he wants to do this.</p>
<p>I think all of us as parents do need to have a serious talk with our kids of the many dangers out there, including cruising, hanging out, going to strange places alone, picking up strangers, etc, etc. However, this is not the occaision. Mom want to enjoy a trip to Europe with son without this kind of worry. I think it is rude of the kid to even say such a thing.</p>
<p>Wow. I just signed on for the first time since last night, and I see there’ve been quite a few responses.</p>
<p>First of all, pafather, please don’t be so obnoxious and offensive. I’m quite genuine, and so is my son! What do you want, identification? And what do you mean, he “says” he’s gay??</p>
<p>What’s this business lately where anytime someone doubts what someone says, they come on and essentially accuse them of being a liar or a ■■■■■? Other than trying to be a smartass, I’m not sure what’s accomplished.</p>
<p>Also, I’m not by any means discounting the potential safety issues; that’s why I began the thread! And I think a lot of the advice has been wonderful, and I do plan to check out all the links. But insofar as my son’s intentions go, where does all this nonsense about encouraging “sexual escapades” and “cruising for men” stuff come in? I didn’t say anything remotely suggesting that that’s what he wanted to do, and neither did my son to me. And, no, I’m not “encouraging” anything like that.</p>
<p>He wants to find a place where he can hang out for a couple of hours and watch other gay guys, and maybe have some wine, and maybe do some dancing. Something he loves to do, but, guess what, despite all the dancing he did at the prom this year and at the “project graduation” parties, he’s never danced with another boy in his life!</p>
<p>And he already told me he wants to find someplace where there’s a young crowd. He has no interest whatsoever in older guys, fortunately – college boys seem to be his preferred demographic – and wouldn’t want to end up in a bar full of 45-year old leather guys any more than I’d want him there. </p>
<p>Obviously, a lot of research is necessary.</p>
<p>(Which reminds me a little of the first time I let him walk around Greenwich Village by himself at all, two years ago when I was at a fundraiser for something downtown and I gave him exactly an hour to take a walk – he was back at the appointed time, and told me he’d walked up and down Christopher Street, and I asked him how he liked it, and he said it was fine, except he was disappointed that everyone there was so old. Old, I said? Yes, he said – most of them were at least 30! He wasn’t joking.)</p>
<p>And, believe it or not, he happens to have very strong feelings about not wanting to have sex with anyone he’s not in love with. </p>
<p>So, I think calling PFLAG and doing the equivalent of staging an intervention is a bit premature, perhaps.</p>
<p>If I can figure out a way he can do anything like this safely (and the Gay Village idea sounds fantastic), then, you know what? I think it would be great.</p>
<p>Sometimes I think people can be a little oblivious to how hard, how lonely, and how alienating it is to grow up in an overwhelmingly heterocentric world, where straight people already have 98% of the cultural pie (and there are some who aggressively seek 100%!). The world of a small, affluent North Jersey suburb, once a Republican town but a place where most people vote Democratic now, a place where my son faced no open hostility despite starting to come out to people at school as gay six years ago, when he was 12. But still a place where he was one of only three “out” gay kids in his class even by the time he was a senior, and one of only a handful in his whole school – every single one of them, I think, associated in some way with the Drama Club! A place with nobody to be “interested” in, once he realized years ago that getting crushes on straight boys was a self-destructive thing to do. A place where every little first step of heterosexual teenage romance receives cultural approbation, applause, and encouragement – first date, first kiss, first dance, how cute, how lovely! But where the idea of two high school boys interested in each other would be viscerally upsetting to most parents. </p>
<p>A place where all his close friends have been girls (because for years, boys were afraid to be seen as his friends), who confide in him all the time about their romances and loves and boyfriends, and he listens, and gives support, and never has anything of his own. Never kissed anyone, never held hands with anyone, never taken a walk with someone he likes. </p>
<p>Is he less deserving than they are? I don’t think so. I still remember a few years ago, when he was 14 or 15 and I asked him what he wanted for Hanukkah, and he said, “can you get me a boyfriend?” Of course he was joking, but there was an undercurrent of sadness, and, yes, it made me sad.</p>
<p>So I think Consolation was entirely right to point out the following:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Exactly. So when he came up with this brainstorm over the weekend, and came to me excitedly with it, and I immediately shot it down, and got all “upset semi-hysterical parent” about it, well, I have to admit I’m not surprised he got his back up and reacted like he did. It’s not that unusual an initial reaction for a teenager who makes plans he thinks are amazing and spectacular and is immediately told no. Even an 18-year old. And it isn’t like he hasn’t threatened to disobey me before. But he never actually has, not with anything major. </p>
<p>I’ve discussed this with him since only once, and only briefly. He was already in “negotiation mode”: well, instead of <em>every</em> night during the two weeks we’re there, how about one to three times? I was very noncommittal, but it’s a step in the right direction!</p>
<p>I’m not letting him go anywhere unless I’ve checked it out first myself on another night, to see what the place looks like, what the neighborhood looks like, and how safe the transportation is. And unless he agrees to follow each and every rule I set down, even if it means calling me every 15 minutes! And anything else I can think of. </p>
<p>Really, I’m less worried about his safety <em>inside</em> whatever place he may go to – because I <em>do</em> trust him in that sense, and do trust him not to leave a bar with a stranger – than about getting home safely, getting lost, getting his pocket picked or being mugged. That kind of thing.</p>
<p>But it wouldn’t surprise me if, in the end, he’s way too tired at night, by the time we’ve finished what we’re doing during the day, and have had dinner, to want to do anything like this after all. No matter how ambitious he is now. On every vacation I’ve ever been on with him in the last half-dozen years – London/Bath, Boston, Washington, San Francisco, etc. – he’s run me ragged, insisting on seeing every gallery in every museum, every church, every interesting neighborhood, every everything. By day’s end, both of us are usually too exhausted to do anything but sleep! (I should post the day-by-day itinerary he’s already typed up for the trip to Rome, based on the Blue Guide and the Access Rome guide – it’s about six single-spaced typed pages!)</p>
<p>So maybe this will all turn out to be academic. I kind of hope so. But if there is some way to do something like this safely, and he does do it once or twice over the course of two weeks, please don’t think I’m going to feel abandoned or disrespected. True, I won’t be able to sleep till he gets back, but being by myself for a few hours a couple of times wouldn’t exactly be a tragedy.</p>
<p>For all I know, he’ll realize how unbelievably boring it is to be in a club full of strangers, unable to speak the language, and come back early! (Although, after all, there are plenty of Italians who speak English, and my son also speaks Spanish close to fluently – he visited Mexico City last summer, and was able to communicate with people very easily.)</p>
<p>Look at it this way. In a couple of months, I’m going to trust him to be on his own in the South Side of Chicago. Where do you think the crime rate is higher – there, or the tourist areas of Rome?</p>
<p>So, yes, I’m worried. Yes, a lot more research needs to be done, and every possible precaution needs to be taken. </p>
<p>But I think some people here have been getting a little carried away with the condemnations, both of me and of my son.</p>
<p>Thanks again to the many of you who’ve been so helpful.</p>
<p>A bit off the subject, but I think a lot of kids I know these days seem to want to include their parents in their risky activities to a degree that I think is really inconsiderate. If you want to engage in risky behavior or do things you know will worry your parents whom you love, why on earth would you tell them your plans? I don’t know anyone in my generation that would do that. THere are just things you do, and keep to yourself. When you share the info with your parents you are burdening them with the fears and knowledge. This is something I am hearing over and over with kids. My kids to some degree have pulled this stuff on us, and we have just closed the door on it. Why the heck would I drive my kid somewhere that has risky business happening?</p>
<p>cptofthehouse — I don’t think this is a case of a kid wanting to include his mom in risky activities. I think this is a kid going to Rome and, in romanticizing the trip in his mind, is thinking that he would like to be able to take in some of the night life. He also was testing the idea with his mom – which is why I tried to come up with some ideas for activities that mom & son could do together. </p>
<p>Donna, the “Coming Out” cafe/bar that I mentioned in post 10 really looks like the kind of place where you could go with your son during the afternoon to check out, and you could decide from there whether it seemed like a safe place for your son to hang out for a couple of hours in the evening. I am also sending you a PM with some more comments.</p>
<p>“True, I won’t be able to sleep till he gets back, but being by myself for a few hours a couple of times wouldn’t exactly be a tragedy”
You see, this is where I have a problem. How could he go out and do this on a Mom/son trip knowing that you’ll be wide awake worrying about him?<br>
My son visited Amsterdam recently. He told me all about his boat tour and visit the beer factory. I’m SURE he did more -not sure how much more - but that’s his business really - he’s 20. But I wasn’t there losing sleep over it. His trip would surely be different if I was his travel partner.
I do understand what your saying about his isolation and his excitement about newfound freedoms. I just can’t see him exploring this side of his life on a trip with his Mom! But yeah, I guess I’m the old-fashioned type. You get to do what you’re comfortable with…and it sounds like you’re are taking every possible precaution to make sure his safety isn’t compromised. Although it’s tempting to pass judgment, there really is no right or wrong here. Just different expectations and styles of parenting.
I wish you and your son a memorable, enjoyable and safe trip! Actually, now that I think about it, you’re very lucky that he wants to go with you!</p>
<p>I think your idea of mom coming along on some of the activities is a good idea, Calmom. It upsets me when I see these examples of kids being so selfish. I have a few of them myself. When you are going on a trip with mom or dad, you don’t want to do things that are going to have them worrying alone at the hotel. That is just a courtesy.</p>
<p>Your son is still missing the “buddy has my back” going out by himself. Male or female, gay or straight, it is not safe to go drinking in bars without a buddy or two who will help look out for your best interests. Go to the daytime gay events, and drink a coffee while he chats with new friends nearby - but don’t agree to let him go to bars alone!!! College is coming soon and he can find other out gay students there to hang out with and drink etc with.</p>
<p>DonnaL, I think that he sounds like a wonderful boy, and I wish I could visit Rome with him! I think that you will be able to find ways for him to stretch his wings a bit but still be reasonably safe. (Like, forget riding public transportation at night!) I applaud you for being open to finding ways for him to do so. I remember all of those romantic movies about girls going to Europe and Experiencing Life, such as 3 Coins in a Fountain, and I wouldn’t be surprised if that isn’t what is running through his head, too. I think that with reasonable precautions he can have a bit of fun and still be safe enough to avoid turning Mom’s hair gray. Best of luck to you both. Make sure you let us know how fabulous your trip was, so that we can all turn green with envy.</p>
<p>DonnaL, as a gay man, I know how your son feels by wanting to “experience” the nightlife scene. I was 20 when I went to GayDays at Walt Disney World. Having gone from never been to a gay club to partying with over 125,000 gay men and women sure opened my eyes LOL I went to my first gay club when I was 21 and wow was it an experience. I think the allure of being around a large group of mostly-good looking Italians, drinking, and enjoying the club atmosphere is really hard to pass up for anyone at his age. Especially when many clubs and bars are increasingly becoming 21 and up only. However, I think it’s fair that you allow him the luxury of going out and enjoying himself for one night, but throughout the whole trip? I probably wouldn’t advise that plus it is a bit selfish on his part to not want to spend time with you.</p>
<p>Your thread title did bring back memories of my “potentially unsafe plans” when I turned 18 and a group of friends from school decided to celebrate our graduation by going skydiving! I guess I “forgot” to tell my parents before hand…oops :)</p>
<p>The video my parents saw from that event sure didn’t win me any brownie points :)</p>
<p>It’s a lot different going to “GayDays” at DisneyWorld with tons of security in a country where you speak the language, than being an 18 year old alone in a strange city not knowing the language and going to bars alone that could have anyone there, with any connection to street crime. But he would not know because he doesn’t even speak the language.</p>
<p>I think that it is dangerous regardless of his sexual orientation. It also seems inappropriate for a family trip. Let him have his fun in bars next semester when a parent is not around.</p>
<p>Personally I would draw the line and protect him from these escapades. Let him go with a friend next summer.</p>
<p>My 21 year old daughter and I went to Rome last summer. The second we got there her radar was up about safety, and she went to school in a very urban area and has a lot of street smarts – Rome has an undercurrent at night that is unsettling. We were misled on more than one occasion about transportation. A bus driver deliberately dropped us off at the wrong stop and put us in an unsafe situation and our hotel concierge gave us wrong instructions about which stop that put us in a dark and empty neighborhood. After that, I spent the money on cabs. It is easy to get lost. I would, at the very least, suggest you have him only take cabs if he goes out at night. English is not as commonly spoken there as it is in some other European countries. Two years ago my then recently graduated from college son backpacked through Europe with a group of friends. I don’t think they ever left each other unattended – it’s just basic common sense. Tourists are huge targets and being alone always makes one an even bigger target.</p>
<p>“But insofar as my son’s intentions go, where does all this nonsense about encouraging “sexual escapades” and “cruising for men” stuff come in? I didn’t say anything remotely suggesting that that’s what he wanted to do, and neither did my son to me. And, no, I’m not “encouraging” anything like that.”</p>
<p>Actually, what you said suggests exactly that, just as a straight kid’s desire to go out alone to nightclubs to “meet people and dance” would suggest something similar. In addition, what he says may not mean much after he’s had a few drinks with somebody attractive.</p>
<p>I’m not going to argue with you. But may I suggest that perhaps, just perhaps, I know my son better than you do, and am not being naive when I say that, for him, dancing does not necessarily imply having sex? Sometimes, as they say, a cigar is just a cigar!</p>
<p>Many precautions will be taken. Promise! He isn’t going <em>anywhere</em> by himself unless we’ve previously gone there together, at night, to see what the place is like, what the neighborhood is like, and how easy and safe the transportation would be between there and the hotel.</p>
<p>And please keep in mind that if I <em>do</em> think he’s going to be safe (even though I understand that there’ll never be guarantees of safety anywhere – hey, I worry a little every time he borrows my car!), I have no problem whatsoever with his spending a couple of evenings by himself doing something fun, while I sit in my room and read. I should point out that he has always been very good about checking in by cellphone at pre-arranged times. Yes, this trip is intended for us to spend time together, but it’s also a graduation present <em>to</em> him, and part of that is permitting him some independence, within the limits of safety. </p>
<p>The same holds true even during the day – for example, if I want to spend a little bit of time looking around in clothing and jewelry stores, I’d much rather have him go off for a while and do something on his own, than have him with me, asking every 60 seconds if I’m done yet! (Don’t worry, I’m not being serious here – I understand the difference in the situations. I’m just trying to explain that we don’t have to be joined at the hip!)</p>
<p>I think it’s the idea of looking at cute guys that has more appeal than the act itself. I imagine, if I were in your son’s shoes, I would go to the bar, have half a drink, look at all the cute men, dance a little bit, and then realize it’s curfew.</p>
<p>It sounds like if this thing actually ever happens, there will be many, many, many precautions taking place. And yeah, there’s that thing on the horizon called college, and college will make drinking, dancing, socializing, and cute gay guys a part of life. (OP should trust me on this one ;-))</p>
<p>A “compromise” idea: hire someone (a tour guide) to accompany him. Find a college aged person who is familiar with the clubs and can act as a buddy.</p>