Spin off Income Diversity

We are in an interesting spot, income diversity wise. We live outside of DC in a close-in suburb. When we bought our home - 20+ years ago - it was very expensive. Now it’s astronomically expensive to live in our neighborhood and we could never afford to buy there. My spouse and I are both federal employees who make very good salaries. But for our street, our neighborhood, we are the least well off family. I don’t notice it often, other than to laugh at the grocery store when I’m parking my Honda in between a porsche and a maserati (not often, more likely a porsche and an audi, but it’s happened more than once). But sometimes it comes out. Like when my boys were very young, kindergarten and third grade, and they wanted to know why we “couldn’t take good spring break trips like everyone else to the caribbean or skiing out west or Paris or the mediterranean.” I laughed until I cried. Sorry kids, you’re getting a fun filled week at home, with possible day trip adventures to places within driving distance… like exciting Philadelphia. Who needs Paris when you can have a cheesesteak? :joy:

But that did bring up the importance of talking about income levels and disparities with the boys and making sure they understood how truly lucky they are and what the world really looks like. And of course most of the kids they knew weren’t jetting off here and there, but the ones that were, were loud. So we made some broader systemic changes - we switched out which church we were attending for one with a broader group of congregants, we made sure summer camps included some community options that were likely to hit broader cross sections of the population, we made a family commitment to volunteering regularly at the local food pantry, we joined a scout troop that pulled from a broader range of incomes for the participants, and we talked about money and made sure that the kids understood that while there are certainly much wealthier people in our neighborhood, they were pretty darn lucky.

And for the most part, it’s been pretty even keeled. Up until this year. My older boy made friends with people who were all in either similar income brackets or who lived like they were. One family I suspect had much higher income than us, but they still lived in the original 1950s house, and drove cars until they couldn’t go anymore. They took some nice vacations, but nothing crazy extravagant. My younger son’s friends are… not like that. I don’t think it really hit home for me until the season of graduation parties this spring. I never really got to know the parents of these kids, so I had no clue. Until I started going to the graduation parties. The other families were all talking about their favorite high end vacation destinations, two of the parties were catered with wait staff and one was in a very expensive wedding venue, and for the first time in a long time I felt… different. Now, these people were never really going to be my friend, so it doesn’t matter. But things like - this summer my son needs my car to go to work - he’s working construction as he’s prepping for his construction management major and the sites are all over. It’s a pain in the butt for me - I get a ride to the metro and take the subway to work. If no one can give me a ride, I take a bus to the metro and then reverse that coming home. And my car, my 10 yo Honda CRV is now filthy from all the construction dirt. Hopefully he can clean it before I get it back. S25’s BFF, on the other hand, just got a brand new mercedes. Not a new-to-him used car, new off the lot. My life would be a lot easier if we could have bought S25 a car. But he picked the more expensive college, so there’s a trade off. For this other family, no trade off. I know full well that this isn’t the majority of people, but these folks - the ones who can afford the very high end graduation parties and regular high end vacations and to buy their kids expensive cars - those people are around.

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I had a next door neighbor when my kids and hers were babies.

They lived a much different lifestyle than we did.

New cars, a country club golf membership. Travel to Florida for spring break. Expensive clothes, new furniture. On and on.

We were a one income family at the time, struggling to get by.

Found out later, everything was bought on credit. Leased the new car and then leased the buy out. Furniture, made payments on it. Travel to Florida, her parent’s condo in Naples.

I wonder how they are doing now.

That’s the thing, and I have a family member who lives like this, whose lifestyle is all smoke and mirrors.

We don’t need to live that way. Simple life, happy life. Frankly living better than most.

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My D is going to a summer program where there are some people who appear to be much wealthier than we are. She said it is eye opening because she always thought we were “rich.” We live in an old house, have one car that is 8 years old… but we do have college funds for the kids, retirement accounts, healthcare, we never worry about getting enough to eat. She knows lots of people at high school who have bigger financial worries.

I told her that, relative to most humans on this earth, we are very fortunate. But there are plenty of people wealthier than we are, too.

Posting this because I just thought it was funny that she thought all this time that we were “rich.” :smiley:

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Our kids were also raised in the DC suburbs. Our community had a diversity of incomes and the elementary school my kids attended was a Title 1 school. D’s friends were middle of the road there as were we, but S seemed to know a lot of folks who appeared to have more money. He complained about it then but now admits he realizes we lived within our means. My kids had everything they needed and some of what they wanted. Our family prioritized education and being able to do activities. We waited until the kids were teenagers to take nicer vacations. I always emphasized that compared to most other people we were/ are VERY fortunate.

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I always thought we were upper middle class growing up. Uh, my dad was retired noncom military who then went into retail, and my mother worked retail. Neither went to HS. But when I turned 16 I got a (used) car and every fall my mom gave me money to go to the mall and get my school clothes. We went out to eat every Saturday at Bonanza, and I could get a dessert!

I want to say that I think it’s a reflection of your kids feeling like they had everything they needed. Good job!

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We have a private beach on a very nice lake which is part of our street association of houses. We also belong to a private beach club which is right next door (joined 30 years ago…they had lifeguards and swim lessons and canoes and kayaks). Both of our kids had their first jobs at this beach club. I also have worked there.

We are comfortable, but not extremely wealthy. Which is fine. We have always lived within our means, and saved. I’m a bit of a bargain shopper, and that’s a good thing. So are both of our kids as adults. We can indulge ourselves if we so choose.

But we also give back whenever possible. I just made a donation for a fundraiser in our small town benefitting two very worthy town organizations. The sponsors thanked me multiple times…but my feeling is anyone who can donate…should. And we can.

Our town has just about no racial or ethnic diversity, but there is income diversity. However, I wouldn’t even venture to guess the income of others…and honestly, I really don’t care about that.

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My friends with the rich (and generous) parents? I knew how much the father made because it was part of the Parade Magazine (in the Sunday paper) article on how much people in Denver made. He was CEO of a gold mining company and his salary was $7Million that year. You are right that their wealth was much much more. But for my friends, it meant that they didn’t have to save for college (or even K-12) as the grandfather paid for it all. Grandfather also paid for a scholarship at our grade school, paid for the computer lab, and I’m sure he did at other high schools too. The kids could go to any college they wanted to.

The only other person I knew on the Parade list was a Jesuit priest who was president of Regis University. $235k per year, which was then returned to the Jesuits.

If we are talking about income diversity within the neighborhood, one neighbor is living in a house they bought when the housing market crashed and they haven’t done much as far as fixing it up, but they sent three kids to good schools (I know the kids had loans, and probably got some scholarships, and I’m guessing the parents helped some). Another neighbor lives in a similar house, but has put on an addition, put in a pool/hot tub (apparently the pool has direct access to a source of beer, wine or both) has a Tesla butt ugly truck, and other “signs of wealth.” As another neighbor said about them - they do (buy) because they can.
Then there’s the doctor with at least one Hummer, one Italian sports car (Lamborghini I think), a Tesla, and a big boat. A couple doors down from him is a house where I know at least one young person living there is struggling.
As far as friends, we are in the DC suburbs, in a fairly wealthy area. We have friends that bought 4 Porsches in 4 years (ugh!), take lots of nice vacations, and can afford to do pretty much whatever they want, friends I know have many millions of dollars, but don’t show it, and friends who are solidly middle class but are 60ish and can’t really think about retirement because they can’t afford it. I have friends who still pay for the entire family to go on nice vacations, and know “kids” (late 20s) who have to help their parents.
At least one of my kids noticed we live in a bigger home than many of his friends, he got to go on many nice vacations growing up, we got him a fine but not luxurious car when he “needed” it, and he didn’t have to take any college loans, unlike many of his friends.

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We have a lot of tech wealth in our neighborhood I suspect. It is interesting to look at property records. Higher priced, newer houses have been purchased with cash, lower priced/assessed properties have mortgages or have been in the family for a very long time. When one of these older homes gets sold, it is usually to a developer. Next thing you see is a makeshift electrical meter… followed by a wrecking ball.

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When D was in preschool, she came home one day and asked when we were going on our ski vacation like the rest of her classmates (we never did). We did borrow a practically new ski jacket from one of her classmates that D wore for a few years before outgrowing it and returning it. It was useful for when we traveled with H on his work trips and visited family.

I feel we are middle of the pack economically too. Our kids went to public schools from K-8th grade and then private 9-12th grades (or for D 9-11).

D and S know they’re lucky that we didn’t have them take out any loans for private school or college, as many of their friends did and one went into military to get funded for college. We gave each of them a used car in their last year of college as LA really is a car city.

We happily drive our cars about 20 or so years generally. We still live in the home we bought when I was pregnant with D over 30 years ago & love it here.

I know I have family members much richer than us and some who may be around the same as us. Some may have less than us—hard to know.

My family income and retirement savings is not middle of the pack.

We may drive older cars, we may have a house that needs remodeling. We don’t snowbird in the winter.

But we never worry about how to pay the bills. We have money to fix the roof and go on vacation. We have to never worry about an unexpected expense. We paid for our children’s college. A 4 year, residential college.

Everyone thinks they are middle class. Know others who live a flashier lifestyle. Do things that you don’t feel you can.

But I’m not in the middle of the pack. Never was, never will be.

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We have never remodeled our home—probably it might be a good idea but we do keep it otherwise intact. My brother and sister remodel their homes.

I was going to post something similar – some of y’all think you are “middle income” but what you write indicates you definitely aren’t. Maybe it feels that way because of the pond in which you swim, but some of these sound like pretty nice ponds.

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I feel like my friend group is pretty middle of the road.

My kids did go to both private school for a few years as young kids (my oldest has really bad anxiety and needed a smaller environment) and also a title 1 public elementary when they stopped going to the private school. After elementary they went to a public charter for a cheaper smaller environment.

I don’t remember where you live ucbalumnus, but that is not how it works everywhere. My town buses kids for diversity. We don’t have rich neighborhood schools and poor neighborhood schools. My kids’ public school was very diverse SES-wise, with many immigrants and refugees as well as kids from very nice wealthy neighborhoods. My kids had friends who lived in middle class neighborhoods similar to ours and friends who lived in wealthy neighborhoods and they were also friends with kids who had single parents and lived in subsidized housing.

My neighborhood is getting higher income because my town is very desirable, but my house was built in 1973. There are several split levels in my neighborhood, so that era. My house is a brick ranch with a basement.

I think most of my friends and my husband’s friends are similar in income level to us (most own their own homes, for example), but he does know someone he went to high school who is either a multi-millionaire or a billionaire. They are married to a retired FAANG vice president. He has visited them when he was on the west coast for work. They have an amazing compound and were building another. Just insane kind of wealth, but they also do a lot of philanthropy especially focusing on underserved communities.

The millionaire/billionaire friend is an outlier, though. We are friends folks who have tight finances, too. Most of our friends have modest homes or apartments and a few have nicer places.

We live in an upper middle class neighborhood. There isn’t a whole lot of income diversity in our neck of the woods. But there is some, as evidenced by the variety of cars that people drive. It ranges from Tesla, Audi, BMW, a corvette or 2, Lexus to Hondas, Fords, and Toyotas.

We drive Hondas that are 7-12 yr old and have >100k miles on them.

My kids (D24, D26) attend(ed) a public charter school ~30 min drive from where we live. Small HS graduating class (usually ~45-50 students per yr), but definitely diverse in terms of income. Some kids got brand new cars for their 16th birthdays (1 kid even got a Mercedes…his dad is very well off, started a professional cleaning business when he immigrated here from a west African country and he’s done extremely well for himself). Some kids drive their parents’ older used cars to school. Some kids don’t have a car at all.

Some kids’ families live in large homes in wealthy gated communities. Some live in average middle class suburban neighborhoods. Some kids live in apartment complexes nearby and walk to school.

One kid’s family might have more money than God, while the classmate sitting next to them is an immigrant refugee and that student (and siblings) are the only English speakers at home.

D24’s classmates asked her when she turned 16, “So what kind of car are your parents getting you for your birthday?” Um…NOTHING! No car. You get to share the family vehicles with Mom & Dad. Her classmates who asked were surprised and had a little dose of reality. :joy:

Many of my kids’ friends are children of immigrant parents, so those families tend to spend several weeks each summer going to their country of origin to visit family/relatives. Meanwhile, a lot of the time, we either don’t go anywhere at ALL on a summer vacation or we’ll drive to Disneyland (~6-7 hr drive depending on traffic), stay overnight for free with friends, & then stay a couple of nights in a cheap(er) motel on Harbor Blvd to spend 3 days at Disneyland, then drive home.

Other friends of theirs go on regular family trips like cruises, a week or 2 in Hawaii or the Caribbean, etc., etc. We splurged last summer on a week in Hawaii for D24’s high school graduation. That was fun, but not something we can afford each year.

1 family at my kids’ school are all former foster kids…a family with 6 children (all siblings) who were adopted together by their foster parents so the siblings wouldn’t have to be separated from each other. Their household doesn’t have much extra disposable income, but nobody in our school community really gives a rip (when it all comes down to it) if you don’t have much money.

As to my next door neighbor who looks down her nose at me for driving a 2013 used Honda? She can go take a long walk off a short pier as far as I’m concerned because her opinion of me is none of my concern.

Most of the time, I don’t pay attention to figuring out whether somebody has more or less than I do because I don’t care about that sort of thing. And people who want to throw their alleged income status around is a huge turn off, so I’m apt to quickly & quietly distance myself from those people anyway.

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D1 told me that they are middle class because GD1 asked them why they don’t have a house with stairs (entire brownstone vs a whole floor) and why she has to share a nanny with her baby sister (her friends have multiple Nannies at home).

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I wouldn’t assume variation in car models within your neighborhood is evidence of income diversity. An Experian review of >$250k income persons found that 61% did not drive luxury makes. 3 of the top 10 most frequently purchased car models were Hondas. A similar analysis found the most frequently owned vehicle by wealthy persons was a Ford 150 – same as the most frequently owned model among the overall population.

Even among the most wealthy persons in the world, some own and drive cars that are not a good reflection of their income/wealth. For example, Bezos used to drive a 15 year old Honda Accord to his office at Amazon. Zuckerberg has been seen driving a Honda Fit, VW hatchback, and Ford Bronco.

Similarly a good portion of persons who do not have high incomes drive luxury/sporty car makes. I know many young persons who have jobs that are associated with lower income, yet still drive luxury/sporty cars or expensive trucks.

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This car discussion reminds me of something that happened when my son was still in pre-school or early elementary. He had a friend whose parents drove what I considered to be pretty nice cars. I can’t remember what they were, but nicer than Hondas and Toyotas for sure, and they had 2 of them. Then I dropped him off for a play date, and saw they lived in a very small townhome (and it wasn’t in an exclusive area). I thought I wouldn’t have wanted to leave those nice cars parked in the shared parking lot. It made me realize different people value different things, for sure.

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We bought our home before our town became as desirable as it is. Our (small) subdivision has always been the most desirable. They recently expanded and built about 20 new homes. They are all over 1.2 million and the families are pretty young. It seems to be a lot of local people that either grew up in our town or the one next door. My neighbor’s two daughters bought houses next to each other and I was a bit suprised that they could afford them (one couple is a speech therapist/land scaper and the other a gymnastics coach/laborer in the union that employs a large number of people in our town). She told me both homes were bought in cash and it was “bitcoin” money. I would say about 40% of the homes have been bought by younger couples with what I guess would have been called “blue collar” jobs in the past. Two landscapers, a granite installer, a state trooper.

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Of course, there is quite a range of F-150 from basic XL versions to loaded up King Ranch versions.

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