@NYC2018nyc my D didn’t visit before being accepted. We are flying into Edinburgh.
Just applied last week after disappointing results in the U.S. so my parent opened up international options. Any ideas on when I would hear back? I would assume pretty fast because they don’t have many applications this time or year.but I have to choose whether or not to put a deposit down at Tulane by May 1st
@margaretwoodburn it took about 6-7 weeks back in the fall. It Also depends on which course you are applying to as the applications are assessed by the department rather than an admissions committee.
Hey everyone, I’ve been accepted into the MPhys Physics program at St Andrews with direct entry into year 2. Do any of you know about grad school placement in the US with a St Andrews physics degree? Can one get into PhD programs at good US unis with a St Andrews physics degree?
Academically St Andrews is third to Oxbridge in The Times and Sunday Times 2019 rankings, 3rd overall in the Guardian 2019 rankings and 5th overall in The 2019 Complete University Guide rankings. These are independent publications and come with the same caveats as US ranking publications. A first or high 2:1 (equiv GPA 3.7+ and 3.5 respectively) along with a decent GRE and good academic references should get you where you want to go.
@elguapo1 Thanks for the encouraging response! The main reason I asked that question was because St Andrews is expensive for my family, and I won’t have too much money left after studying there. I am quite serious about studying further and since STEM PhD programs in the US are usually funded, this is what I am aiming for. But I am still quite confused as I have offers from UCL, Edinburgh and Durham in the UK and CU Boulder in the US. Do you feel any of these universities have a significant advantage over the others in grad school placement for physics specifically?
How would you rank them?? Also, I should mention that UCL and CU Boulder cost nearly twice as much as the others, and this means I literally won’t have any money left!
You also mentioned that a good performance in St Andrews can take me where I want for a PhD. Which universities in particular do you think I have a chance at? Is MIT, Caltech, Harvard etc even possible? What about say UT Austin, U Wisconsin-Madison, Maryland or CU Boulder itself (all extremely well known for physics).
Thanks!
Of your choices I would go for Durham. It has a super physics program (I know current physics students there), it is 3 years (v 4)**, so probably the least strain financially of all your choices (unless you are instate fo any of the state unis you listed, in which case those would be better bets). IMO, none of them will have a substantial advantage over the others for grad school. What matters most is the research you do, especially during the summers, (at your own university / REUs / others- you need to start looking for that by Christmas of first year), the PGRE, your recs and your grades, more or less in that order (depending on the specific program).
For going from undergrad → grad for physics the undergrad place matters less than you might think. Within the physics community there is a strong consensus as to the ‘core’ courses. US universities are relatively ‘flat’, in that the physics major at all of them has been designed to meet the pre-reqs for grad programs. The UK programs cover all the same material. My physics collegekid had physics friends at Durham, Edinburgh and Cambridge as she was going through- they would compare notes on what they were covering and although there were variations in the order, by the end they had all covered the same material. That collegekid went from a mid-level LAC (not esp known for science, much less physics) to a top 10 grad program in the US; her pal from Edi is now doing a PhD at Durham, the one from Durham is now at Oxford and the one from Cambridge is at Trinity College Dublin (they are all EU nationals, and weren’t looking to go to the US).
As for whether you can (if you want to when you get to that stage) get into MIT / CalTech / etc- from any of these universities, the answer is yes. Current grad students at MIT come from a range of schools, from UC-B to University of Hawaii, from UPenn to UNebaska, from CMU to Drexel, from Imperial to University of British Columbia.
**correction- just saw that you are direct entry into year 2, so it’s 3 years not 4, in which case i will amend the above to say Durham or St As depending on which program appeals to you more. Key differentiators would be: specifics of the program (there are detailed descriptions online, so read those) and how you feel about St Andrews vs Durham (Durham is a town, StAs a village),
Concurring with @collegemom3717 in terms of recommendations. Other things to consider, Durham is twice the size of St A’s with roughly 17k students at Durham and 8k at St A’s. St A’s will have a higher cost of living with private rents being about 20% higher if you choose to live out of student accomodation. I dont know this for a fact but I am guessing percentage wise St A’s will be slightly more international in student body composition. One disagreement with collegemom, St A’s is a town not a village, but a smaller town than Durham for sure. If a large urban university is your choice then go for Edinburgh it is a very student friendly city and much cheaper than UCL/London. Given your targets for grad school you will need to score a first class degree with excellent academic references and a superior GRE, and that is all about you rather than where the undergrad degree is from. From a personal point of view D1 was accepted at St A’s, Durham and Edinburgh and chose St A’s, and graduated with a 1st. She loved every minute of St A’s and is now at a T20 grad school in the US. Best of luck to you.
@elguapo1 and @collegemom3717 thank you both for your responses. They were really helpful! It is good to know that a UK degree is useful in the US.
One clarification though @collegemom3717 . I did not exactly understand what you meant when you said 3 vs 4.
At St Andrews and Edinburgh I can enter into year 2 directly and then either get a BSc in 3 years or an MPhys in 4. This is because Scottish universities have a 4 year BSc and a 5 year MPhys. At Durham I enter in year 1 and either get a BSc in 3 years or an MPhys in 4. So the program duration is the same either way. Would you reccomend an MPhys or a BSc. A physics professor who used to work at Cardiff in the UK and then moved to Penn state in the US said that a 3 year UK degree is worthless!
Btw I am from India (not US citizen)
Regarding internships and research, I have heard time and time again that there are far more opportunities in the US and it is nearly impossible in the UK to get into one of these (extremely competitive and they do not favor internationals). The professor I know also told me that research experience is key when getting into grad school. Considering this, what is your view? I hear CU Boulder has an abundance of opportunities for undergraduates interested in research. I hear it is uncommon for undergraduates to do research in the institution’s own labs in the UK (I will be writing to the program coordinator to ask about this)
Another thing I notice is that in the UK degrees, except for the Bsc/MPhys “project” which is like the US “thesis” there is no other research as such. In the US there is that and additional mandatory research projects and group projects which can be taken more than once too. On the other hand, UK seems to go into further depth in courses from the start and by the final year, it seems to cover advanced topics which US graduate level courses start to cover. This is possibly because UK has no distribution requirements like writing/social sciences/humanities and it starts with an A-level background which is also focused on subject expertise. Finally, UK is very strict about which courses one must take, and taking extra courses etc is literally impossible, I doubt they even encourage auditing. US seems to be a bit more relaxed, and students often mention that they were allowed to pile on extra courses and even take graduate level courses!
Also, I have heard repeatedly that working after the degree before going to grad school is relatively easy in the US for internationals (via OPT) but impossible in the UK. My parents are looking at this side of things and suggesting the US. They are worried that after my UK degree, even If I do well, I won’t have a job or enough research experience for a decent grad school. So they seem to be thinking even though it is more expensive, US is a better investment in the long run.
My teachers too seem to be favoring the US due to the flexibility and abundance of opportunities.
Regarding grades, in general, I am pretty good academically. I did extremely well on my A-levels. I know university is way harder, and I don’t want to be overconfident, but I have a feeling I can do well.
I don’t really have a preference. Town or city or Jungle or hill I am happy to go anywhere. I just care about the academics and the best option both financially and from a perspective of future opportunities.
It is really so confusing for me! Please let me know what you think.
My daughter (not direct entry) is in second year of chemistry at St. Andrews. She is BSc but can switch to MChem next year if she likes (and gets the required marks in her second year courses, which she should do no problem).
I was a chem major in the US and can confirm that class wise, she is much further along than I was after 2 years. She has roughly completed the chemistry coursework I had after 3 years of a US bachelors. In addition she has far more lab time than I did and knows how to use many more instruments. But she doesn’t have any “undergrad research” and has been unable to obtain an internship for the summer back in the US. My feeling is most of those are going to students who go to on campus job fairs at our local universities and not emailed resumes from students from a school the local pharma companies have not heard of.
So you need to balance the further in depth course work against more opportunities for undergrad research and decide which one is more important to you.
@jiren5 It is clear your academics are top notch to have the offers you do. If research at the undergraduate level is what you seek then you are best to go with a US school. Undergraduate reasearch is not a ‘thing’ in the UK, no one in the UK chooses a unviersity on the basis of research opportunities. I am not saying they dont happen, but it is the exception rather than the norm, certainly no employer would expect you to have research experience, they are looking at where you read for your degree and what class of degree you achieved. I assume your parents are paying for college and if they are more comfortable with the opportunities in the US then look at US schools. As for the Cardiff ‘Professor’ I have absolutely no idea what he/she is talking about and neither does he/she.
@jiren5, I’d dismiss that Cardiff prof too. Note that Cardiff isn’t exactly comparable to PSU or any of your options in terms of research intensity. Probably not in terms of top students either.
For CU, did you get in to some honors college and did you check to see what they offer?
That would matter in terms of the quality of your research opportunities. Potentially a lot.
Also, while the top undergrads and thus probably the honors college students at CU would be comparable to the overall quality of the undergrad student body at your UK options, most of the CU undergrads would not be. Something to consider. And yes, at the top UK schools, 3rd year in England/4th year in Scotland in single subject courses is comparable to master’s level classes in the US due to the focus (with the first 2 years in England/first 2 of 3 in Scotland covering what a major would in the US) due to the more focused nature of the the programs.
But yes, at American unis, undergrads have the opportunity to take grad classes and get involved in research (if you are International, though, look in to the ramifications when it comes to paid positions).
@PurpleTitan thanks for your response! I did get into the honors program, and I even got a 25k scholarship. But I am unsure as to what the advantages of the honors college are exactly. As far as I could tell, honors college students are allowed to take some classes which have a maximum class size of 17. Initially, I thought this was fantastic (it is in a way), but the classes offered are not really specific to physics, in fact, most of them are a bunch of courses which one would use to satisfy distribution requirements. They are social sciences/humanities/arts/writing courses and a few introductory courses in science and math. There is also some honors accommodation and residential honors classes, again not physics specific. There is the honors thesis at the end of the program though, and it looks pretty damn serious! But anyone who has a high enough GPA can do this and graduate with departmental honors, it is not only for the students who were admitted to honors initially. So I didn’t find anything extremely special basically. But they do seem to take honors students more seriously, and this may mean more opportunities. There is also access to some communities, and guest lectures and events etc.
I know what you mean about the quality of the student body. I have heard that the majority of the people at CU don’t really care about their education. It is a party school after all! But the UK is self-selective in this sense.
I had a question though. Does me being international affect the research opportunities I get? What I mean is that, will I be ineligible because I’m an international? I know this depends on the exact program itself and whether it is in CU or outside. Also, what did you mean when you said I should look into the ramifications when it comes to paid positions.
@jiren5, because there are restrictions on Internationals and being paid while on a student visa. You should look in to that.
BTW, in the UK, it’s not so much self-selection as it is selection by the program. You have to meet their minimum marks to have a chance.
Yes I have heard about this. I will definitely look it up carefully.
Hahaha I meant self-selection in the sense that, students without the minimum grades won’t apply because there is no chance of them getting in.
Btw, by ignore the Cardiff proffesor, did you mean that his comment saying that a 3 year UK degree is worthless is false? He seemed to strongly suggest that unless its 4 years (the MPhys) it is useless.
@jiren5, he may be referring to the research component, which tends to be an aspect that is lacking with 3Y UK degrees.
Ah. I see. I will keep that in mind.
Anyway. @PurpleTitan , @elguapo1, @collegemom3717 thanks a lot, all of you, for taking the time to write such detailed and insightful responses. It has been really really helpful. Once I discuss things with my parents, I shall make a decision.
Cheers!
Note you will do significant research in the fourth year of an MPhys program in the UK. It will be integrated in to the curriculum. If you get a first and do well on the GRE I see no reason you could not get a fully funded graduate placement in the US. And you will be ahead of your fellow PhD students that came out of us achools.
@Coloradomama, pinging you about post #143 and later as you seem to know a lot about physics.
Elguapo1- your knowledge and background in regard to European Universities is helping so many people. I don’t want to intrude on this thread, but I have some questions that are difficult to research and aren’t referenced here on College confidential. Does this site allow folks to set up a separate conversation?