Not arguing that there isn’t self-selection for AP Physics C. In fact, I would argue there’s a lot more self-selection for that course than AP Calc BC and yet the BC exam has quite a bit more 5’s than Physics C ie. BC is close to 50% versus 30% for AP Physics C. Even when a school offers the joint Physics 1/C course, students tend to self-select out completely and take neither version because it is known as the hardest science course in the school, even those students who opt to take AP Calc BC. In other words, it’s not just self-selection that explains the amount of 5’s on the AP Calc BC exam. BC is just is an easier exam than most AP stem exams, including Physics C.
Repeated assertion is not proof.
Do you have any indication that the same students would get a worse score distribution on the AB test than the BC test?
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I think it is more the case that the sorting into BC happens along the way.
But there is also the fact that the BC Calc has definitely been dumbed down along the way, for whatever reason. My S’s teacher would only give them practice problems from the early 90s. There is a 90-95% 5s in her class. Last year it was strangely extra easy (per a couple of teachers we know who are graders). S said the 2024 BC exam was the easiest Math test he took in all of high school.
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I have no idea how hard the AB test is as I know not one student who took it. All of the students I know took AP Calc BC and scored very well, mostly 5’s. I am comparing it with the other AP science tests like AP Physics. The same students who got 5’s on AP Calc BC struggled with the Chem and Physics getting 4’s and 3’s for example so sure I said it’s not proof but I don’t need solid proof when I know the kids who took these tests, didn’t study for any of them and managed to score a 5 or at the very least a 4 very easily on the AP Calc BC test. All of them would assert it was the easiest AP STEM exam they took. Some did manage to score a 5 on the bio with some studying though some scored 4’s there too.
Yes true to some extent but I am asserting that isn’t the only reason because I know schools where the students do not have the option of AP Calc AB and do not have honors precalc so they jump right into AP Calc BC and find it easy to get a 4 or a 5 unlike their scores in other AP stem tests where because they don’t study, the find themselves with 4’s or 3’s or even 2’s. None of them scored below a 4 on the AP Calc BC exam. I don’t know what they would have scored on the AB as they didn’t take it since their school didn’t offer the course but I do know their scores for Calc BC vs the other AP sciences and it’s not even comparable.
So yes dumbed down for sure.
If calc BC has been “dumbed down”, this hasn’t been reflected in the score distribution of past 23 years available on the college board site. The earliest BC calc score distribution listed on the site was from 2002. A comparison to this year’s 2025 exam is below. Distribution is almost identical. However, Calc BC does have a higher score distribution than Physics C, as summarized below.
Calc AB
2002 – 18% receive 5s, 67% receive 3+
2025 – 20% receive 5s, 64% receive 3+Calc BC
2002 – 43% receive 5s, 81% receive 3+
2025 – 44% receive 5s, 79% receive 3+Physics: 2024 (2025 not available yet)
Physics 1 – 10% receive 5s
Physics 2 – 19% receive 5s
Physics C:M – 29% receive 5s
Physics C:E – 35% receive 5s
There is no doubt that self selection with a higher proportion of top math students taking BC contributes to why BC has a much higher score distribution than AB. This effect also contributes to why Physics C has a much higher score distribution than Physics 1. Or why more advanced math courses have a higher grade distribution than less advanced math courses at GT, as noted earlier. Or why Ivy+ colleges tend to have have a higher grade distribution than less selective private colleges. Or …
There are also other contributing factors in all of these examples. It’s possible that Calc BC exam is typically perceived to be easier than Physics C exam among students who take both tests, which is consistent with the score distribution. Anecdotally many students report this, sometimes giving reasons along the lines of Physics C requires excelling in both calculus and physics, while BC only requires excelling in calculus.
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Let’s move on from the off-topic discussion of math sequences, science sequences, AP Calc / Physics courses.
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Does anyone have the full list of schools that now require some form of testing? This is the list obtained from an internet search:
Brown University
California Institute of Technology (Caltech)
Cornell University
Dartmouth College
Georgetown University
Georgia Institute of Technology (Georgia Tech)
Harvard University
Johns Hopkins University
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)
Purdue University
Stanford University
University of Florida
University of Georgia
University of Miami
University of Pennsylvania
University of Texas – Austin
Yale University (test flexible)
Military Academies:
U.S. Air Force Academy
U.S. Coast Guard Academy
U.S. Merchant Marine Academy
U.S. Military Army Academy at West Point
U.S. Naval Academy
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This list seems pretty up to date, but as always need to double check third party lists on school websites.
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Florida public universities require a test score for most frosh applicants.
Some Georgia public universities (not just Georgia Tech) require a test score for most frosh applicants.
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AFAIK Princeton continues to be test optional, however, it uses (and has done so from the beginning) language that suggests it is test preferred.
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Yes, I read this as test preferred (from the Pton admissions web site).
If I have taken the SAT/ACT, should I submit the test? Will you still consider it?
Yes. Though standardized tests results will not be required for those applying in the fall of 2025, we still value these results and will evaluate them within the context of our holistic review.
Ohio State
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Also University of Tennessee
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Stanford will require SAT or ACT for transfer applicants starting with those applying for fall 2026 entry, according to Standardized Testing : Stanford University . Note that they also recommend scores from the last five years.
This seems odd in the context of its historical emphasis on non traditional students for transfer admission, who are less likely to have SAT or ACT scores from when they were in high school, or may be more than five years beyond high school. Here on these forums, it is commonly said that the SAT and ACT are meant for high school students, not those who have already attended some colleges after high school.
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It would be good to require reporting of all SAT and ACT scores too (as is the case for UK universities). This would penalize the advantaged students who can afford lots of retakes vs less advantaged students who would be more likely to only take it once.
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I agree with you, but to play devil’s advocate, what about disadvantaged students who get fee waivers?
Do you think disadvantaged students have the time to do lots of prep to improve their scores, even if they get a fee waiver? Multiple retakes and superscoring are overwhelmingly the preserve of the privileged. It would be much better if we got back to these tests being one and done, which was typical a few decades ago.
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