The non-submitters in the Bates study I referenced did indeed have scores 200 points lower. The actual scores were as follows. The “~” relates to reading numbers from a graph.
Test Submitters – SAT ~= 1280, College GPA = 3.16, Graduation Rate = 89%
Non-Submitters – SAT ~= 1075, College GPA = 3.13, Graduation Rate = 88%
If we are talking about “elite” schools that are much more selective than above, then graduation and retention rates are much higher. Almost without exception, they don’t have problems with lots of kids failing out in freshman year.
I’ve read this thread off and on since it started, and I will give my POV (which is not up for debate).
If you don’t like that Dartmouth is now going to require standardized testing again, just don’t apply to Dartmouth. There are plenty of test optional schools out there from which to choose.
If you feel Dartmouth is accepting substandard students and you don’t like this, then don’t apply to Dartmouth. Frankly, I think you could be missing out on a great opportunity at a great college…but if these substandard possible acceptances poison you on this college, apply elsewhere.
There are some fine colleges that have been test optional for decades, and graduate fine and productive students. Bowdoin and Bates come to mind. These are strong LACs also located in the northeast. Somehow they have figured out how to craft a strong incoming freshman class. I’m betting Dartmouth can follow their strong lead.
They explained this very clearly. They think there are false negatives, specifically disadvantaged students who they do not identify as academic qualified without tests, but who they would identify as academically qualified if they knew they had test scores in the 1400s. So they say they want to require tests so they can find such people.
Dartmouth told us why they made this change in their report.
Our overall conclusion is that the use of SAT and ACT scores is an essential method by which Admissions can identify applicants who will succeed at Dartmouth. Importantly, these test scores better position Admissions to identify high-achieving less-advantaged applicants and high-achieving applicants who attend high schools for which Dartmouth has less information to interpret the transcripts. The data suggest that, under an SAT/ACT optional (hereafter “test-optional”) policy, many high-achieving less-advantaged applicants choose not to submit scores even when doing so would allow Admissions to identify them as students likely to succeed at Dartmouth and in turn benefit their application.
Are you saying they aren’t being truthful, and what they are seeing is that some students aren’t succeeding? Why wouldn’t they just say that?
I’m not saying it’s not possible that D is seeing more students ‘not ready’, but the retention rates for the last several years are actually higher than the three most recent pre-Covid class retention rates. That doesn’t seem to support your claim.
The issue is that you are hypothesizing, but making it sound like fact.
The article was published in the 1990s and is referencing Berkeley before prop 209 in 1996, so 1980s or 1990s. It states that Black students had a low graduation rate at that time, 30 years ago. While that may or may not be true, when you review how much SAT/ACT contributed to variance in graduation rate in the 1980s/1990s, the results suggest a very different conclusion.
If you admit a group of students who have weaker grades, weaker course curriculum/rigor, weaker scores, weaker LORs, … and have lower average income, are member of a demographic minority, … ; then see that group struggles more than average during college, it doesn’t mean that their scores must have been the key problem. You need to add controls to determine how much the scores contributed compared to the other portions of the application that were also weak. This is similar to the earlier test optional vs test submitter example – the scores were relatively weak for test optional admits, but presumably not rest of application. What was the outcome for those students with relatively weaker scores, but not relatively weaker rest of application?
I am saying this is why they’d do this - and I hadn’t read the report:
Our overall conclusion is that the use of SAT and ACT scores is an essential method by which Admissions can identify applicants who will succeed at Dartmouth.
I’ve always read that the test is a huge foreshadowing of who will succeed in college. GPAs can be gamed - a test can’t so makes total sense.
My hypothesis was that they (and likely all TO schools) are letting in kids who, academically, don’t belong - and I believe they are acknowledging this.
Or as @NiceUnparticularMan wrote : hey think there are false negatives, specifically disadvantaged students who they do not identify as academic qualified without tests, but who they would identify as academically qualified if they knew they had test scores in the 1400s.
They want to validate the GPA. I’ve watched the thread and read a lot of crazy things but I think it simply comes down to - they need a trusting measure to validate and this is it. Of course, they’re not alone. It’s interesting to me the thread has lasted so long.
Letting in kids who they think are academically qualified but end up not being academically qualified would be a false POSITIVE. Not letting in kids who are academically qualified but they failed to identify them as such due to lack of test scores is a false NEGATIVE.
The second of those is the problem they identified, not the first.
As long as you qualify your statements that they aren’t fact it’s not a problem/misleading. I would caution you to NOT take the first sentence out of context…the next two sentences in the first paragraph are necessary to understand what they are saying…which gets at the false negative issue.
The risk for Dartmouth now is that URMs/FGLI students with scores of 1400 (just to stick with that example) will choose to not apply (if they even take a test). Historical data show us they won’t, some counselors will recommend they don’t either.
It’s estimated that 25% max of URM/FGLI students take a test. Last year in California (class of 2022) only 21% of ALL students took an SAT…a state that comprises a relatively high proportion of Dartmouth students.
Understood - but not taking the test to begin with would lead one to think they’re not qualified - and it’s my belief that’s why schools are adding the test.
I understand what they are saying though and I now it’s opposite.
They are forcing a cure to the problem. If you want Dartmouth, take the test.
Whether what I think is correct or not, the testing requirement solves the issue.
Schools can and hopefully will find a way to do it. After all, society is diverse and kids should learn within a diverse environment.
I don’t agree with the Supreme Court decision. I do agree with test requirements.
Forgetting what I agree with, the way we are going could lead to less racial and socioeconomic diversity at schools that celebrate it- but I hope it’s not the case.
Yep, I have hypothesis - but I haven’t searched for data to back them…it’s just my logical mind. I have no skin in the game.
I think any institution, including public, has the right to admit how and why they might - so I’ll leave it at that.
I know others before said, for public it shouldn’t be this way, but if it weren’t, you’d have to be like UT and said “benchmarks” and admit anyone and everyone who achieves them - so I don’t think that’s realistic.
I read the press release and the study and was surprised by the conclusion but take Dartmouth at their word.
“It is also an important tool as we meet applicants from under-resourced or less familiar high schools across the increasingly wide geography of our applicant pool. That is, contrary to what some have perceived, standardized testing allows us to admit a broader and more diverse range of students.
The finding that standardized testing can be an effective tool to expand access and identify talent was unexpected, thought-provoking, and encouraging.”
Dartmouth professor (Sacerdote) studied Darmouth’s pre- and post-TO in line with what many have experienced: Students, parents, counselors becoming even more confused about the process - esp. the 50% “rule” which makes little sense based on definition of median.
From Dartmouth’s professor Sacerdote in Wash. Post:
“Another revelation was that “we were missing out on all these great, talented kids who were withholding their scores,” not realizing that the school considers scores in the context of the applicant’s high school or neighborhood. Given the option of not submitting scores, some students were choosing not to send in theirs, presumably because they were below the median of admitted students’ scores — even though the numbers would have helped their shot at getting in. nteresting. I believe, what many of us have found: that the calculation of whether or not to send test scores has been incredibly confusing. “
Apologies if this has already been posted, but it bears repeating. Dart is not giving any indication that its students are ill prepared. Having the SAT scores is an additional data point.
There have been references here, and in other CC threads, about students from under resourced schools, or from families who could not afford SAT tutoring, etc. being at a disadvantage. I am sure there is some truth to this; a student whose parents sent them to a six week SAT bootcamp over the summer will do better than a student who didn’t prep for the test, regardless of socioeconomic background. There are, however, ways to prep for the test that don’t require much in the way of resources. We had our son take practice tests from the Princeton SAT Prep book ($21 on Amazon), and that helped greatly. It really comes down to realizing that prepping for the test helps, and being willing to do the work.
@JackH2021 you think? We sent our second kid to SAT prep course and her score was exactly the same the second time as the first. And when she asked if she should take the test again…we said…NO.
Her colleges of choice were not TO and she got accepted to her top choices.
All kids attending elite schools don’t take prep courses. And some kids who take those prep courses don’t do better and apply anyway…and/or apply elsewhere.
Dartmouth is making an informed decision about what they want to do.
The counter is under a test required system, Dartmouth is missing out on the many "great, talented kids " who don’t apply because they are intimidated by not meeting the perceived high score expectation, not realizing that scores may be taken in context of their background.
If you look at the actual number of disadvantaged students at Dartmouth, the portion didn’t decrease when going test optional. Instead Dartmouth press reported record number of Pell and lower income students shortly after going test optional.
NADWORNY: So a group of professors at Dartmouth found evidence that in the years when the college was test-optional, disadvantaged students were more likely to leave out their test scores, but those scores were sometimes high enough and might’ve helped them get into the college. Here’s Bruce Sacerdote. He’s an economics professor at Dartmouth and one of the researchers.
BRUCE SACERDOTE: They don’t know that their 1400 might be a great score given the challenges of their neighborhood and educational environment. And so they can’t be expected to know, and they really handicap themselves in the process.
NADWORNY: Sacerdote says Dartmouth is working on ways to better communicate to students what a helpful score might be so that students in the future aren’t scared off by the testing requirement.
I don’t doubt that is true. I am referencing a separate group. Switching to test required increases group 1. Switching to test optional increases group 2. The net result under a test optional system was what Dartmouth press called the highest ever portion of Pell and lower income students, suggesting that group 1 is significant.
Group 1: Students who don’t apply under test required system because their scores are less than the perceived expectations, not realizing that Dartmouth may take scores in context of background and be okay with relatively lower scores.
Group 2. Students who apply, but don’t submit scores under test optional system because their scores are less than the perceived expectations, not realizing that Dartmouth may take scores in context of background and be okay with relatively lower scores.