I disagree. As long as you properly learned the material and did a few practice tests, a 5 is (almost) guaranteed. I believe the lower scores nationwide are caused by some schools not teaching the material well, people self-studying and thus not learning as well as something enrolled in an AP class, etc.
One could argue that the fact they found a statistically significant difference at all given how tightly clustered GPAs are at schools like Yale is impressive and indicative of a substantial issue. Especially considering that their sample size of test optional students was also not extremely large. But I have not seen the data and do not know for sure.
2 Likes
I suspect that Yale offered to take AP or IB scores in lieu of SAT/ACT scores, in an effort to appear more “flexible” and “accommodating” in their resumed mandatory test policy.
I cannot see how this would help the very students whom they claim to have re-instituted mandatory test scores to help, namely, students coming from disadvantaged backgrounds, since most of them would not have AP or IB scores by the end of 11th grade, if at all.
Yale wants to see test scores because they are a standardized evaluation of the student’s ability to read and analyze a passage, or to do higher mathematics. No question that with uneven access to extended time and expensive test prep, the tests are not a level playing field, but Yale feels that they’re better than no tests.
I really don’t think that every well-prepared student gets a 5 on the AP exams. It’s not at all unusual to see people with >750 English scores get a 4 on an AP English exam. I think that if schools felt that AP exam scores were that important, they’d ask to see them as part of the admissions process, not just as part of the credit-awarding process after acceptance.
1 Like
Exactly. And with the mean GPA at Yale being a 3.7 with nearly 80% of grades being A or A-, I expect non-submitters have an average GPA well north of 3.0…which would be unlikely to have any differences practically speaking in the classroom or outcomes. Of course the actual data from Yale would be helpful, but I won’t hold my breath.
1 Like
Generally agree with this. That said, I think underprivileged kids have a hook that the affluent do not: everything the underprivileged do well is amplified in their favor, while UMC kids face the reality of looking boring no matter what they do because of the context of their upbringing. The latter is a big reason, I think, for the proliferation of overdoing it on ECs.
On the testing side, an actual professional in the field of testing once told me that cramming and tutoring were of limited utility, particularly if started toward the end of high school.
The way he explained it to me was that, for a great many people, performance on these tests had mostly to do with their general upbringing and how they’ve spent most of their time over an extended period. So, things like the quality of their education throughout (not just middle and high school) coupled with their life-long (or thereabouts) habits. Were they readers? Problem solvers? How did they spend the bulk of their discretionary time? Numerous factors, many of them subtle and others not so subtle, had, in his view, a profound impact on how people do on these tests. So, sure, you could see how this bundle of factors could be influenced by SES. But it’s not inevitable or inescapable.
4 Likes
AP Lit and SAT reading are two, very different ball games. One is very objective (albeit a bit tricky), the other is very subjective.
I’m a little unclear on the mechanics. As I understand it, there is going to be a new part of the Yale-specific application where you are going to tell them what you are doing to satisfy their test requirement, and then you actually have to do that.
What I don’t know is if there is going to be an option to say you only want to use your ACT or SAT superscore to satisfy this requirement, but you would still like them to consider your APs, but only the APs you want them to consider.
And it sorta sounded to me like at least they informally they going to want an explanation if you take an AP class but do not report an AP score, even though that will not be required.
Out of curiosity, do we know if having some APs by the end of junior year is more common in California?
1 Like
I agree with your suspect that this new Yale AP policy could increase the stress levels for some students. I wish that Yale would limit the number of subjects that AP scores can be accepted, as is done at NYU, so that some students would not ask, “Are AP scores from 15 subjects good enough for Yale?”
I learned about NYU’s AP policy from post 552 of this thread; NiceUnparticularMan wrote:
"I note NYU’s test policy for APs is “one from a Humanities exam, one from a Math or Science exam, and one from an exam of your choice. For Stern and Tandon, one of the exams must be in Math (AP Calculus AB, BC or Statistics).”
2 Likes
I’m beginning to think the AP score policy is a huge distraction and is injecting more uncertainty.
4 Likes
That depends. Is that 3.0 really equivalent to a 2.0 from 20 years ago? In that case, there may actually be a classroom difference. We just don’t have the data to know. And I think that calls for some intellectual humility: it means we really don’t know - it does not justify a belief that the difference is small.
So particularly if you listen to the Podcasts, it becomes clear that was an important consideration for them, but not their only consideration. They don’t go into a lot of details, but they definitely have some sort of interest in AP/IBs and ACT/SAT subscores that are relevant to possible majors, and also that show breadth of preparation. All that does not seem particularly connected to the disadvantaged student issue, although it may intersect in some cases.
Yes, this is sort of what I mean about test flexible policies being an older issue. In fact, I didn’t have a kid apply during this era so I only know about it indirectly, but I understand there was a lot of uncertainty about SAT Subject Tests back in the day.
And it is probably notable Dartmouth did NOT do this. Only Yale, but they seem to think it is important to them.
1 Like
Well, we review test scores holistically, in some sense, but unlike Dartmouth, our data has not shown, for us, that outperforming your local high school predicts success at MIT. Rather, we use high test scores to find outliers, more like Yale describes; students with “thinner” apps from less advantaged backgrounds with fewer other opportunities nonetheless demonstrating unusual academic aptitude. But I think every school’s research is showing different things, which makes sense, since each institution is a different educational environment, and the point of your admissions process is not to run a nationally standardized process, but to identify students who are a good fit for your specific institution.
9 Likes
California is a vast state with vast differences in its schools (both public and private). At our kids’ HS, APs are quite limited by grade level, and are mostly taken in junior and senior year. Some schools (including very good schools) limit APs even further. However, there are also schools where you can pack your schedule full of APs starting in freshman year. Really too much variation here to say anything meaningful, I think.
3 Likes
Instead of limiting APs, Yale’s apparent potential all-AP-score requirement for anyone wanting to submit some APs (which I will, for the time being, argue isn’t actually the case), Yale would be going in the opposite direction, perhaps more akin to a Georgetown approach.
I can already imagine the kids in May asking, “my AP exam is tomorrow and I don’t know if I should take it, because if I do, I’ll have to report it to Yale.”
1 Like
This is the money quote, as far as I can see.
10 Likes
I think someone alluded to this upthread. Is there an expectation that if you took the class you took the test?
1 Like
Exactly. Similarly in Illinois where the SAT is required for graduation, but the ACT is still popular especially among affluent students…a HS jr targeting Gtown may have a good ACT test score and be done. Then along comes the junior year SAT in school test, and the student doesn’t take that test, choosing instead to sit for one in spring of senior year where it will be meaningless (but fulfill the state grad requirement), and not have to be reported to Gtown.
Maybe, but many students don’t take all the tests for various reasons: financial, overlap with other tests, etc. etc.
3 Likes
This issue was long ago solved by standards bodies, where it’s essential to avoid any confusion between two parties. Here is how the the IETF, the body that defines Internet protocols, handles it:
- MUST: This word, or the terms “REQUIRED” or “SHALL”, mean … an absolute requirement
- SHOULD: This word, or the adjective “RECOMMENDED”, mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore …
- MAY: This word, or the adjective “OPTIONAL”, mean that an item is truly optional
3 Likes
From the Podcast discussion, I think their answer would be something like, “Don’t worry, just do your best, and if your AP scores are not perfect that is OK, because AP scores are just one of many things we will consider.”
And from prior experience, this will be heard as, “If I don’t get a 5 on each AP I take, I am probably cooked at Yale.”
4 Likes
I remember that assumption from some years ago, but personally, I think it’s utter stupidity for a college to make such an assumption now when a single AP test is $94 and they are looking for disadvantaged students. And then there are advantaged students taking many AP courses who simply decide not to take all of their junior year AP exams.
1 Like