It’s going to be interesting to see what happens with these policies over the next few years and URM/FGLI enrollment.
Specifically, one might expect the proportion of these disadvantaged students to fall back to pre-TO levels in test required situation (at least at schools that saw increases during covid and/or TO years.)
Here’s African-American student enrollment at Yale, courtesy of Jon Boeckenstedt:
If Yale is successful in continuing the recent enrollment growth of URMs (during covid/TO), will they be sued since race can’t be used in admissions now?
If URM enrollment falls, will the test required policies be labeled a failure? For some people, that would certainly cement their perception that these are elitist and/or racist institutions.
Time will tell how things shake out. I do hope that Yale and Dartmouth’s consultants helped them understand the potential risks to their new policies.
I’m always surprised by how really uneducated many (most?) college applicants and their families are about just how competitive admissions is at the elite schools. They figure, I’m a good student, I work hard, I have decent grades, hey I’m on the honor roll, why shouldn’t I get into Brown?
My son’s girlfriend as an example. They are juniors, she’s a straight A student but doesn’t take the highest rigor course load at all. Plays in the band but doesn’t do anything else. Figures she’ll get into a top school because her grades are good. Mom and Dad went to local colleges, they don’t know they think she’s brilliant, guidance counselor is subpar, etc.
But to keep this on topic, I agree with you. More stats. How many AP scores make sense? What if you’ve only taken a few by the end of Junior year? But you’re also right on the big picture, most applicants are elite school material to begin with and should find a school that works for them.
That would be unfortunate then and seem to not support requiring tests, if one is assuming URM enrollment is going to decrease.
ETA: Said differently, do you think URM/FGLI enrollment is going to decrease from their current levels at Y and D, even with their re-dedicated efforts to increasing outreach and such in their new(old) test required situation?
Of course applicants should take information directly from the authority, the admissions office, though one would hope that the response from the student receptionist answering the phone isn’t simply “all AP scores are only required if that is the testing option you are choosing.” Fortunately, it looks like Yale has already added a relevant response to the FAQ that makes the not-required-but-de facto requirement for all applicants a bit clearer:
It is basically a process ruling not an outcome ruling, so they are fine if they didn’t use an illegal process.
In addition to targeted outreach, individualized consideration of personal stories where ethnicity/race is a component of the story are permissible, hence all the related supplemental essays. But I am sure there was a LOT of training over what was and wasn’t allowed.
Most relevantly here, the joint DOJ/ED guidance said this:
Nothing in the Court’s decision prohibits institutions from carefully evaluating their policies to best determine which factors in a holistic admissions process most faithfully reflect institutional values and commitments. For example, an institution committed to increasing access for underserved populations may seek to bring in more first-generation college students or Pell Grant eligible students, among others. In addition, nothing in the decision prevents an institution from determining whether preferences for legacy students or children of donors, for example, run counter to efforts to promote equal opportunities for all students in the context of college admissions.
Similarly, institutions may investigate whether the mechanics of their admissions processes are inadvertently screening out students who would thrive and contribute greatly on campus. An institution may choose to study whether application fees, standardized testing requirements, prerequisite courses such as calculus, or early decision timelines advance institutional interests.
Again, some potentially tricky issues here, but I think if what Yale is doing with standardized tests in combination with outreach and other policies all netted out to continued gains in URM share, that would not be inherently actionable as long as they stayed well within this sort of guidance.
I understand the SCOTUS ruling. That won’t stop SFFA from suing again, which reps have already stated as such…they are watching these enrollment numbers closely.
On the other hand, other people might think that the return of testing requirements has made it more difficult to have different hurdles for different people and equality of opportunity is being restored (as opposed to equity)
Absolutely. Noting that there are relatively more white and Asian college bound FGLI students than URM FGLI students. Hopefully we will see both those numbers increase at the schools that are actively targeting disadvantaged students.
This sounds wonderful in theory, and it is undoubtedly part of why Yale and Dartmouth chose this particular PR tack.
The problem is that we have the Chetty data and CDS’s and can see how rarely in the test-required era Yale and Dartmouth actually admitted the 1300-1400 scorers from the 800 high schools.
In the context of a school like Yale, which almost needs to look for reasons to move your app to the ‘no’ pile right away, this is probably right.
But in the abstract, is it really the case that the value of rigor for having taken an AP class comes from taking the test? One of mine did a lot of AP and two others did IB D. I remember more about the latter, so take this with a grain of salt as it applies to AP - but anyone who embarked up and completed the course requirements for an IB Diploma who chose to sit out the tests (and thereby not get the actual IB diploma) nonetheless got rigor. I can say that definitively even though IB testing is no walk in the park. But I’d still say any kid who completed an IBD course load had a lot of rigor in school, and the grades mean something.
Is AP coursework not in and of itself rigorous? Does the grade in the course not mean anything?
Again, in context of applying to Yale, you probably do need to max on everything that’s being set forth in support of the application and your red flag comment is I’m sure spot on.
It certainly should follow the curriculum and grading standards. But I gathered the Tulane AO and others believe not all AP classes are really doing that.
Does anyone happen to know if athletic recruits are part of the cohort that are studied for the subsequent ‘success’ in the college question?
Because I am guessing that athletic scoring for Ivy League recruits gets you down in this range where I guess we’re being told that academic “success” is unlikely. I know I’m overstating that, but for some that’s the basic proposition. In any event, Ivy League schools are division 1 and their allowances for athletic recruits are a big factor.
We see a lot of Vals posting on CC (so presumably mostly A grades, even in their AP classes) with 2’s and 3’s on the AP exams. And then we get the litany- really bad teacher, teacher left in the middle of the year, teacher didn’t allow make up work, no extra credit, hardest course in the school. All of which I’m sure Adcom’s understand. But nevertheless- kid doesn’t understand the material (hence a 2) and is still getting either a B or an A.
Yes, every kid has a story to tell. But short of inviting every AP History or Chem teacher in for a little visit to understand his or her grading philosophy- Yale wants to see the test results if you took the class.