Yes, there is quite a bit of anti-testing sentiment, to put it mildly. I got called a Nazi numerous times in various counseling Facebook groups after we made our announcement (admittedly, being a bald white guy with blue eyes doesn’t help me here, whatever my intra-institutional bona fides on diversity work are within MIT). The overwhelming sentiment I have heard is that people either 1) don’t believe the research for nonspecific reasons, or 2) don’t care, because they are just tired of dispiriting evidence of the actual effects of systemic racism in disparate outcomes, and want to work around them rather than through them.
(There is a third strain of critique around what testing measures and what education is for, which I think raises interesting epistemological and ontological questions, but is sort of outside of the main set of questions that ordinary people outside of higher ed beard-stroking are concerned about, I say as a higher ed beard-stroker)
It’s easy for me to say, as a white guy, that we should look that evidence dead in the face and figure out ways to resolve the structural inequalities, when I am not the subject of racism and when I am not an overworked counselor asking to facilitate testing on top of everything else. We are trying to figure out where and how we can intervene structurally, and I hope will have actually-impactful things to offer. But it’s not easy. No one likes to look in the mirror of American society as it actually exists (regressive and unequal, as reflected in testing results).
I think they explicitly state that any of the 4 options can be submitted but if you choose to fulfill the score requirement by using AP scores then you submit all of them. So you can choose which suite of tests you submit but you should submit all the tests in that suite.
You are bald??? I had no idea. Time to update the avatar! This news is one of the most interesting and surprising things that I’ve read on this thread lately.
Actually, I am just kidding. Many posters have been making interesting comments. I just prefer genuine dialogue and attempts to find common ground over the repetition of the same points over and over again. You are quite good at encouraging dialogue over issues about which many of us have strong emotions and legitimate concerns.
I am curious on the number of high achieving students applying to elite schools who are taking AP classes and not submitting scores. It never crossed our minds not to do so.
Some places also have at least one public university which offers guaranteed admission, or perhaps a scholarship, to those with certain SAT scores. That encourages participation greatly.
Students submitting SAT/ACT can use score choice. No requirement to submit all.
If the student chooses to submit APs to satisfy the testing requirement, the student must submit all APs.
If the student submits SAT/ACT, but has taken AP courses, the student isn’t technically required to submit all AP exam scores, but if they do not submit all AP exam scores, Yale will be looking for an explanation as to why, including why they may have opted not to take a particular AP exam. That, to me, is a de-facto requirement, not only to submit all AP exam scores, but to take all AP exams for which one has taken the course (if the student can afford to do so).
If I recall, some years ago, Princeton required an explanation in Common App for not taking APs, though they seem to have dropped it somewhere along the way.
Yeah, this feels to me like it fits into Yale’s stated goal of having its official test policies more effectively communicate what they are really doing with testing, including asking questions about missing AP scores.
I do understand this is going to set off a whole subindustry of people looking for loopholes, exceptions, and other stratagems for avoiding sending a score they don’t love to Yale. But I kinda agree it is better if people know how Yale sees it, since I think most people actually are not like that and will just do what Yale says they should do, or of course not apply to Yale.
Yes, you’re right that UK students applying to Yale will not be able to submit only A-levels results but must also take the SAT/ACT (I didn’t mean to imply that but was not clear).
While I think many/most/all UK students are not well-served by having to narrow to 3-4 A level subjects, one consolation is that performance on coursework (homework, quizzes/tests, etc) is generally not counted (e.g., my D22’s transcript for Year 12 & 13 shows only her 4 A-level exam results) - in that sense, it is less stressful on a day-to-day basis although the run-up to the A level exams is extremely stressful for most/all.
For US students wishing to apply to Yale (and other schools that follow Yale’s approach), they seem to have the worse of both worlds - needing to worry about GPA as well as high-stakes exams (AP/IB), even if they have SAT/ACT scores to fulfill the standardized test requirement. So, while Yale’s decisions seems to be providing more choice/flexibility to students, it might not play out that way for students whose schools offer AP/IB courses and academic rigor is shown by taking those courses.
Do you think that is more feasible at universities that are less STEM-focused than MIT? My D22 is pursuing STEM at Oxford and she said that if you’re not adequately prepared in core STEM subjects (particularly math), it becomes very apparent early on and there’s no escaping this reality.
As I posted a couple of weeks ago, Oxford recently launched the Astrophoria Foundation Year Programme that gives “those with significant academic potential, [but] who have experienced severe personal disadvantage or disrupted education” a free preparatory year at Oxford, after which they can formally enroll in their chosen field of study. Can something like this be adopted by top US universities to better prepare students from underprivileged backgrounds for university study?
I strongly agree that Yale being clear is very important. What I wonder about are other top schools, which ones have this particular expectation, and where exactly in selectivity this particular expectation falls off.
Probably? I mean there are relatively few American colleges/universities whose mission is something like “we are trying to admit the strongest STEM students bar none,” and probably that should be the case. However, I don’t think any of us should accept the inequality in American K12 education, and while it’s starkest in math, it’s true across fields.
I hadn’t seen that! Thanks for sending. I’m curious about how much impact they are seeing. Our evidence is that students who attend our summer bridge program, Interphase, don’t see different academic outcomes from similar students who don’t, but they report better social integration and a more positive community experience, which matters a lot. I’ll put it on the list of things to talk to some Oxbridge folks about.
Interesting, hadn’t thought about the UK before… My US kids tend to score well on tests and they’d love it if the transcript were deemphasized compared to test scores, lol. Particularly my youngest, who like an older sib, flies by the seat of their pants in schoolwork in order to devote wholly to a main EC and gets by on a tendency to do well on tests.
All first-year and transfer applicants for fall 2025 admission and later are required to submit scores from one or more of the following test types: ACT, Advanced Placement (AP), International Baccalaureate (IB), or SAT. Yale does not prefer one type of test over the others, and there is no minimum required number of scores. Prospective applicants and their college counselors or advisors are in the best position to consider their available scores and to decide which to include with an application. We advise selecting scores that you are proud of, that reflect one of more areas of your academic strength, that supplement the courses and grades on your transcript, and that reflect your sense of your own preparation for college. If you completed an AP-designated course in high school and completed the exam, we recommend including your score, even if you fulfill Yale’s testing requirement with the ACT or SAT. "https://admissions.yale.edu/faq/standardized-testing#t186n1779
Sounds very much like the way they treated SAT2 scores in the past.
I’ve never quite understood the opposition to standardized testing as an input along will all the the other information that’s available to admissions staff. I don’t think that having access to these scores would change a truly holistic review but rather augment the review with another data point.
Some schools would use, some may not, and even others may only use portions to determine fit into a specific major.
We have two kids that have navigated the admission process. One was in 2016 where testing was table-stakes and the other in 2022 at the height of test-optional. Both got into their most desired schools and majors (Stanford CS, Johns Hopkins BME) - it seems like in both instances the process, for us, worked, and their “fit” in both schools was textbook. No hooks, no national science awards, no athletics.
This news is one of the most interesting and surprising things that I’ve read on this thread lately.