That would be pretty shocking, but is what is suggested by the post I was replying to.
For 2020-2021 school year I think MA schools were all over the place on all these things, though most privates were at least 1/2 in person (some all). From what I saw publics had a mix of schedules - some kids all remote, and some partially remote…Since MA (and all new England) have districts by towns (not counties) there is always huge variation…though some smaller towns combine, particularly for HS…
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Posting an actual gift link because this article is so great (and infuriating, and that’s coming from a private school parent).
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I’d love to see the data here. The data that I have seen shows- pretty conclusively- that the “unmarketable degrees” are not from the “highly rejective colleges” we are talking about. They are from for-profit, predatory colleges which take the students Pell, saddle them with loans, and have the kids discover that a BA in Criminal Justice does not qualify you to be a lawyer and a BS in Forensic Science does not qualify you to become a Medical Examiner/Pathologist.
I believe your facts are wrong. But I’d love to see your data.
And the “highly rejective” privates we are talking about are moving quickly towards no-loan financial aid. So a disadvantaged kid in my state-- assuming they are at the top of the pile academically- can go to the state flagship with loans, or one of the top privates and graduate debt free. Not a hard choice by any means.
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You are welcome to search for the data.
I can tell you from counseling others with student loan debt - and some are from grad degrees as well as UG- that there are many degrees that simply do not pay off, where balances have grown and decades later there is neither progress on principal pay-downs nor loan forgiveness. Whether these are from TT schools are not, I haven’t asked. There was a degree-at-any-cost approach to college that appears to be fading, but is also common to those that are first-gen/UP who do not have financial advisors in their social circle.
On the student loan debacle, there are piles of data. Pointing fingers at the universities behind the curtain is far harder to do than pointing fingers at less powerful for-profits. We have $1.75 T in student loan debt in the US. It is unsecured, not dischargeable, and a financial and emotional burden to large numbers of Americans.
In many cases the correct college is the one a student can afford.
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The facts matter. And your facts are partially right and partially wrong.
Indeed- grad degrees- unsubsidized- account for a very big number. But for Undergrad (the “degree at any cost”)-- the primary abusers of student loans are for-profit institutions. And far from being “less powerful”- again, the facts matter. These companies invest heavily in lobbying efforts at both the federal and state level; they have successfully fended off several forms of legislation which would have crippled them financially.
Piles of data- yes. But if you are suggesting that Dartmouth (just to pick on the subject of this thread) is a major source of the student loan crisis, you need to actually LOOK at the data. And if you are counseling students on their debt, knowing where it comes from is CRITICAL to understanding the problem. The scores of college grads with degrees in “Recreation management” working at health clubs handing out towels (jobs that do not require ANY college, let alone a degree), who have used up their Pell, have taken out loans which they’ll never be able to pay back- I bet you know some of these people. I do. And they didn’t get their degree from Dartmouth, Princeton, etc. that’s for sure.
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We are a little off topic here, but the status of your university does not always translate into your earning power. There are broke people with Harvard and Princeton degrees, and rich people that came out of trade school. Some degrees do. not. pay. off. If you need loans to get a degree in Social Work, you need to really consider that degree.
I am not picking on Dartmouth here, but for-profit universities didn’t get us into Trillions of dollars in student debt. The blame is far and wide.
As for need, as someone said above, Dartmouth determines your need, not the student. If you can get data for outstanding student loans held by Dartmouth grads than we can have that discussion about a single university’s culpability, but I don’t know of a public source for it.
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counseling adults - parents with their own loans who have children nearing college age themselves.
I do not need to know where the loan came from, other than who is holding the note and how soon it can be paid off. These are people who went to schools with well regarded reputations, i.e. Fordham, Columbia, to name two, who live paycheck to paycheck.
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This is fantastic, but it started in 2022-23.
“Prior to this policy change, families with total incomes above $125,000 may have had a student loan included in their award to help meet their demonstrated need.”
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Interactive Map - The Institute for College Access & Success (click on New Hampshire) says that 37% of Dartmouth graduates have debt which averages $23,850. 4% of Dartmouth graduates have private loan debt which averages $57,335.
New Hampshire public universities do poorly in comparison here.
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I’m just trying to point out that what we know about Dartmouth’s process indicates these are not both factors in the same part of their process. So what Dartmouth does with activities and such during the holistic review part of the process is going to be largely unaffected by what it does with tests in the academic screening part of the process.
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I didn’t get from your initial post that we were backward looking. All current Dartmouth students are eligible.
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I think the thread took a turn 
The larger debt total must include parent loans.
Please do not misrepresent what I wrote. This is the second time that you have done so. Please reread what I have written and if you want clarification, I will be happy to provide it. However, if you are looking for a strawman argument, please create your own, and do not claim that I was the one who presented the argument.
No, despite your claims, that is very clearly NOT what I was suggesting.
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Is there a different parameter that you can suggest which correlates better with GPA and graduation rates?
This is better than test optional is what they are suggesting. Being a statistician I know one can dice the data many ways. But they went to test this hypothesis and they found this correlation. So it’s valid for this study
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With a 22 percent of variation explained, it’s hardly a strong correlation.
High school GPA is a good predictor for college graduation.
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Normalized grades (not raw GPA) from a trusted secondary school.
Of course not all applicants go to a trusted secondary school.
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I would not assume a high correlation with graduation rates. For example, the UC analysis found that test scores in isolation explained a similar degree of variation in freshmen GPA as the Dartmouth analysis. However, when they looked at graduation rates, they found that SAT explained no more than 4% of variation in graduation rate in isolation, and only added 1% beyond HSGPA, as summarized below.
Predictors of 4-year Graduation Rate in UC System
SAT + SES – Explains 4% of variance
HSGPA + SES – Explains 7% of variance
HSGPA + SAT + SES – Explains 8% of variance
However, I don’t think asking whether GPA in isolation or SAT in isolation is a better predictor of graduation rate is the right question. I think a better question is how the predictive power compares between the admission system actually used to admit test optional kids and the admission system used to admit test submitter kids.
This admission system considers numerous different parts of the application, rather than just look at GPA or just look at SAT. For example, rather than look at GPA in isolation, an AO might look at course rigor, grade distribution of HS, which classes had higher/lower grades and how well they are correlated with prospective major, upward/downward trend, … They might also look at LORs, ECs/awards, essays, interview, … and how well the combination fits with planned studies at the college. …
Every selective test optional college I am aware that has published a comparison of actual graduation rate and actual GPA at graduation between test submitters and test optional kids found little difference between the 2 groups.
Of course the effectiveness of a test optional system depends on the specific criteria used to admit kids who don’t submit scores, which is going to vary quite a bit from college to college. Some less selective colleges do primarily admit by GPA and SAT in isolation, rather than using a holistic system.
At the opposite extreme, there are schools like Caltech, where relevant faculty are heavily involved in the admission process and can do things like review an applicant’s claimed research better than an AO could. This could contribute to why Caltech found little difference between GPA in freshman core math/science classes between test submitters and test optional admits (stated in podcast), seemingly coming to the opposite conclusion as Dartmouth. Many other factors also contribute, including degree of self-selection and degree of support to accommodating students from varying HS backgrounds, which might include things like having a variety of possible different freshmen math/science starting points. What is best for Dartmouth is not necessarily best for Caltech. What is best for Caltech is not necessarily best for Dartmouth.
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