State of Wonder – October CC Book Club Selection

[ignatius]

<p>I felt less certain as to whether or not Patchett included “the child” intentionally in that seemingly random grouping. No longer.</p>

<p>

“I wouldn’t have taken someone else’s child,” Marina said.</p>

<p>“Of course you would,” Dr. Swenson said. "You would take Easter from me now. You never had any intention of leaving here without him … </p>

<p>[…]</p>

<p>Were he here she [Marina] would have put him in a canoe tonight and rowed the boat herself in the dark all the way to the Amazon River. “I would have taken him,” she said. You’re right." (p. 346)

</p>

<p>Puzzle pieces? Definitely!</p>

[QuantMech]

<p>^Very interesting points.</p>

<p>To raise a separate issue, about the relationship of the women characters to the men, in general: It seemed to me that Dr. Swenson’s relationship (/lack thereof) to men was plausible for an intellectually ambitious woman of her generation. I don’t think I really understand Marina’s relationship with “Mr. Fox,” even after taking into account the difficulties posed by her father’s limited presence in her life. Marina’s relation to Anders was very genuine, while her previous interactions with men strike me as almost sleep-walking. </p>

<p>But I have to admit that I did not expect Mr. Fox to show up in the rain forest! Was anyone else surprised by that? And what do you think about this issue in general?</p>

[Mary13]

<p>Although I understand on an intellectual level why Marina would be with Mr. Fox (loneliness, shared interests, father figure, as mentioned earlier), on an emotional level it doesn’t resonate with me. I can’t picture that romance blossoming. Who would have made the first move and how would it have come about? The chemistry just doesn’t seem to be there. And yet, not only does Marina seem content with him (in the beginning), she is even open to a proposal. After they say good-bye at the airport:</p>

<p>

First she opened the zippered phone case he had given her and after removing the phone and the paperwork searched with some real sense of expectation for a ring. It was the only place he could have hidden it, and if he had, well, that would be something, because then she supposed she would use the phone to call him and say yes, she would marry him. (p. 51)

</p>

<p>But even that “yes” is passionless—as you say, almost a “sleepwalking” response. Her brief marriage to Josh Su also seems to be something she just fell into and then rolled out of—no deep commitment, no broken heart.</p>

<p>I wasn’t surprised to see Mr. Fox show up in the Amazon. I think that his heart is in the right place, even if he is a poor match for Marina. He loved his late wife, and interestingly, Marina seemed to think they could have been friends (like she and Karen?): “…she looked like someone Marina would like. She had a good face, her eyes opened wide, her thick wheat-colored hair pulled back in a ponytail.” There is a subtle sense that Mr. Fox was a different man in those days…youth, nature, joy of the past are all suggested in the photo: </p>

<p>

Mary in the picture was younger than Marina was now, her health shimmering like the pinpoints of light spreading out across the water behind her. They are standing on the bank of a river in front of an overturned canoe, pine boughs feathering the edges of the frame. They are holding up their paddles and smiling, smiling at Mr. Fox, who is himself not yet forty when he pushes down the button on the camera. (p. 52)

</p>

[SouthJerseyChessMom]

<p>QuantMech**while her previous interactions with men strike me as almost sleep-walking. **</p>

<p>Sleepwalking indeed, her awakening came slowly.Wasn’t it Barbara Bovender who made her realize she did indeed “love” Anders?
Repressed, wouldn’t you say.?
I liked Patchett’s technique of blending Marina’s present reality and memories of Anders. Very dreamy. It worked I thought.</p>

<p>Wasn’t Mr Fox a father figure for Marina? I, also, don’t understand his search for her in the jungle.Glad you brought that up!
I was certain he selfishly sent her on a mission to the jungle for the company, and his personal interest was limited. </p>

<p>**Ignatius **- Marina was a three dimensional character imperfect, unpredictable, and complex. I was surprised at some of the things (the previously invisible) Marina would do as she emerged from her cocoon. Guess jungle life would do that ? </p>

<p>Minnesota Marina is different from Jungle Marina, but the same person, in my opinion.</p>

[SouthJerseyChessMom]

<p>Mary13- I don’t recall the first chapter very well, but I thought Mr Fox, was not very warm/ loving when he and Marina visited Karen. You paint a much nicer picture of him!</p>

[PATheaterMom]

<p>I continue to be amazed at everyone’s insights! Very good point about Marina changing from the beginning of the book. It’s almost as if the first Marina has been living her life totally by conventional standards. Always doing the “right” thing.</p>

[Mary13]

<p>I’ve really enjoyed this discussion! I just wanted to let you know I’ll have iffy internet access for the next couple of days, and might not be able to post. Carry on…and in your spare time, start mulling over titles for December.</p>

[CBBBlinker]

<p>Good points, Mary13.</p>

<p>And ignatius – pesky is a good word to describe lit exams!</p>

[CBBBlinker]

<p>OK – I’m posting from my iPod and there doesn’t seem to be an edit feature. My post above was in response to posts at the bottom of page 12 – I didn’t see the discussion had moved to the next page!</p>

<p>Everyone continues to raise good points. So much food for thought in this book.</p>

[ignatius]

<p>

@SJCM

I don’t recall the first chapter very well, but I thought Mr Fox, was not very warm/ loving when he and Marina visited Karen.

</p>

<p>I agree.</p>

<p>

@Mary13

I wasn’t surprised to see Mr. Fox show up in the Amazon. I think that his heart is in the right place, even if he is a poor match for Marina.

</p>

<p>I expected Mr. Fox to show up in the Amazon, but not for a minute did I believe his heart to be in the right place. Mr. Fox shows up in the Amazon to find Dr. Swenson. I think he pushed the phones with GPS on Marina to get the location of Dr. Swenson’s lab, not out of worry for Marina. I don’t think Mr. Fox acted with evil intention but never did he act lovingly. Marina read more into the relationship than existed. Remember when he fiddles with her ring finger: she assumes something he never in any way indicates.</p>

<p>Marina’s a convenience for him, nothing more.</p>

[BUandBC82]

<p>

@SJCM

I don’t recall the first chapter very well, but I thought Mr Fox, was not very warm/ loving when he and Marina visited Karen.

</p>

<p>

@Ignatius

I agree.

But remember on page 18 when Marina left the kitchen to call someone for Karen….

When she (Marina) came back to the kitchen she saw that Pickles was lying out on the floor to the right of his owner, his sodden head resting at the joint of Karen’s hip, and to her left sat Mr. Fox, who had miraculously stepped forward in her brief absence. He was petting Karen’s head with a slow and rhythmical assurance. “It’s all right,” he said quietly. “It’s going to be all right.” Her head was against his chest and her tears had darkened the stripes on his tie from blue to black. And while it wasn’t all right, nothing close to it, she seemed able to hear the steady repetition of the words and was trying to breathe regulary.

Mr. Fox had a warm side.</p>

<p>

@Ignatius

I expected Mr. Fox to show up in the Amazon, but not for a minute did I believe his heart to be in the right place. Mr. Fox shows up in the Amazon to find Dr. Swenson. I think he pushed the phones with GPS on Marina to get the location of Dr. Swenson’s lab, not out of worry for Marina. I don’t think Mr. Fox acted with evil intention but never did he act lovingly. Marina read more into the relationship than existed. Remember when he fiddles with her ring finger: she assumes something he never in any way indicates.</p>

<p>Marina’s a convenience for him, nothing more.

I like the idea of the phone for the GPS! I agree that Mr. Fox does not ever intend to marry Marina. She fills a void in his life, but he still loves his deceased wife, and doesn’t appear to have a place for a new wife or life.</p>

[SouthJerseyChessMom]

<p>^^^You are right , BUandBC -good memory</p>

[ignatius]

<p>I forgot that Mr. Fox steps forward (finally) to comfort Karen. Mistakenly I thought SJCM referred to Mr. Fox’s behavior toward Marina, not Karen, when the two go to the Eckman house with the awful news. He leaves Marina with the burden of telling Karen that Anders died and then lacks not only sympathy but also basic kindness and consideration towards Marina after leaving the Eckman house. </p>

<p>

She [Marina] certainly blamed him for leaving her alone to tell Karen, and for not holding her arm as she carefully maneuvered her way down the unshoveled walk to the car. […] She struggled with the handle on the passenger-side door that was half frozen down while Mr. Fox slipped into the driver’s side. She brushed the snow off the window with her hand and then rapped her bare knuckles against the glass. He had been staring straight ahead and now he turned in her direction and looked startled to see her, as if he had forgotten he hadn’t come alone. He leaned over and pushed the door open.

</p>

<p>When Mr. Fox drives to a (out-of-way, keep-their-relationship-hidden) restaurant, I thought he planned to comfort/console Marina. Instead his purpose seems to be to inform Marina that he wants her to follow Anders to the Amazon.</p>

<p>I don’t find Mr. Fox warm at all. And I still believe he supplies the phones with GPS because he wants to locate Dr. Swenson.</p>

<p>

@SJCM

I was certain he selfishly sent her on a mission to the jungle for the company, and his personal interest was limited.

</p>

<p>

@BUandBC82

Mr. Fox does not ever intend to marry Marina. She fills a void in his life, but he still loves his deceased wife, and doesn’t appear to have a place for a new wife or life.

</p>

<p>I strongly agree with these two posts.</p>

[SouthJerseyChessMom]

<p>I stumbled on this “memoir/short story” written by Patchett about caring for her elderly,aging grandmother.
While we wait for Mary13’s return, thought someone might like to read this beautifully written story. (really made me like Ann Patchett) </p>

<p>[Novelist</a> Ann Patchett recalls her long goodbye to her grandmother | From the Observer | The Observer](<a href=“http://www.guardian.co.uk/theobserver/2007/aug/05/features.magazine77]Novelist”>'This had been one of the greatest loves of my life and I held her in my arms and told her so' | Life and style | The Guardian)</p>

[NJTheatreMOM]

<p>What an absolutely exquisite, heartbreaking, unforgettable story, SJCM. Pass the kleenex…<sniffle>. Thanks so much for posting the link.</sniffle></p>

<p>As far as her fiction goes, in my opinion she writes beautifully but picks weird subject matter whose improbable plots don’t appeal to me very much.</p>

<p>This story did make me admire her as a person. Such candor, such insight, such lovely occasional gentle humor…plus exactly the right amount and type of details to make the story achingly vivid…just perfect, to my mind.</p>

<p>I will definitely keep an eye out for any further NONfiction Patchett pens!</p>

[SouthJerseyChessMom]

<p>^^Well said** NJTheatreMom** - I agree with all that you wrote.Glad you liked it.</p>

[Mary13]

<p>Hi, I’m back from the internet-free zone. SouthJerseyChessMom, thank you for that memoir. I thought the last paragraph was especially touching. Ann Patchett writes so beautifully. </p>

<p>I have a few more thoughts about State of Wonder, which I’ll break into a couple of posts. (12 hours on the road gave me a lot of musing time.)</p>

<p>

@BUandBC82

Mr. Fox does not ever intend to marry Marina. She fills a void in his life, but he still loves his deceased wife, and doesn’t appear to have a place for a new wife or life.

</p>

<p>This is true, and he was upfront with Marina from the beginning. He never tried to mislead her:</p>

<p>

Mr. Fox was always quick to tell her that he didn’t think things would work out. The problem, he said, was his age. He was too old for her. Even when they were lying in bed, his arm beneath her shoulders, her head on his chest, he would talk about how he would die so many years before her and leave her alone. It would be better if she found someone her own age now and not throw away these good years on him. (p. 47)

</p>

<p>

@ignatius

I don’t find Mr. Fox warm at all. And I still believe he supplies the phones with GPS because he wants to locate Dr. Swenson.

</p>

<p>Aw, ignatius, how can you be so hard on a guy who loves baseball?</p>

<p>

They had met, really met, for the first time late the summer before at a company softball game, doctors vs. administration. Mr. Fox came over to compliment her pitching, and that compliment led to a discussion of their mutual fondness for baseball. (p. 5)

</p>

<p>Come on, it’s our national pastime. :)</p>

<p>In my head, I tried to cast his character for the movie, and I reflected on the fact that at age 60, he’s having no trouble bedding a woman 20 years his junior and getting her to fall in love with him (or at least think she’s in love with him). He must have some kind of mature-sexy-intelligent thing going for him, right? And yet a certain aloofness as well. Richard Gere is 62. Would that work? Although ignatius, I know you’re picturing Andy Rooney. ;)</p>

[Mary13]

<p>Marina is a bit of a doormat, so if Mr. Fox uses her—either sexually or as a human GPS—she has to bear some of the responsibility. She already knows this about herself. When she agrees to Mr. Fox’s request to stay in Brazil:</p>

<p>

She could smell her own capitulation coming on from a mile away. It was her nature, her duty. (p. 145)

</p>

<p>Dr. Swenson recognizes this character trait in Marina too. When Marina objects to performing the C-section on the Lakashi woman, Dr. Swenson says:</p>

<p>

”You will do this regardless of how you feel about it. That much I know about you now.” (p. 273)

</p>

<p>Dr. Swenson reiterates this idea later, when she insists Marina stay on as her physician, even though Marina says she doesn’t want to:</p>

<p>

”You know what you’re doing.” Dr. Swenson said, “and you will feel sorry for me because that is your nature.” (p. 308)

</p>

<p>In the same way, Marina also says yes to Karen because “it was her nature, her duty.”</p>

<p>

”I know how much I’m asking,” Karen said. “And I know how terrible you feel about Anders and about me and the boys. I know that I’m using all it it against you and how unfair it is and I still want you to go.”</p>

<p>“I understand.”</p>

<p>“I know you understand,” Karen said. “But will you go?” (p. 31)

</p>

<p>And of course, she does. </p>

<p>Is Marina’s frequent “capitulation” a weakness or a strength? It’s funny…after I wrote the word “doormat” above, I looked it up in the dictionary, and the sample sentence was: ”To put up with such treatment you must be either a saint or a doormat.” Which is it for Marina? Is she admirably selfless in a way that few us could ever hope to be, or is she too submissive?</p>

[ignatius]

<p>SJCM: Great link re Patchett with her grandmother.</p>

<p>

@NJTheaterMom

As far as her fiction goes, in my opinion she writes beautifully but picks weird subject matter whose improbable plots don’t appeal to me very much.

</p>

<p>I eventually thought of the Martins and extended fertility almost as a subplot. I got caught up in the interaction between Marina and Dr. Swenson. Too, the Amazonian setting became a strong character in its own right for me. Patchett lost me a bit with the natives chewing on trees. Like Mary 13, I have no trouble suspending belief but can definitely see why some might shy away from State of Wonder.</p>

<p>Welcome back, Mary!</p>

<p>Wait! Mr. Fox looks like Richard Gere? Why did no one tell me? I can be as shallow as the next person … well, truthfully, more than the “next person.” Did I mention I always held a soft spot for Mr. Fox? LOL</p>

<p>

@Mary13

Marina is a bit of a doormat, so if Mr. Fox uses her—either sexually or as a human GPS—she has to bear some of the responsibility. She already knows this about herself.

</p>

<p>I agree … and evidently growth/change remains elusive: “And Marina brought him back, and without a thought that anyone should see her, she told the driver to go on.” (p. 353)</p>

<p>I find Marina too submissive.</p>

[ignatius]

<p>I want to clarify that I don’t think Marina should have hopped out of the taxi and rushed to greet Karen along with Anders … particularly, considering … well, you know. I do think the wording used in the last sentence does nothing for Marina’s doormat image.</p>