<p>Excellent point in #400. That is why I think that respect for every other person has to be inculcated from the cradle. I have the impression that, in general, the threat of punishment is not as effective in preventing criminal behavior as is the absence of motivation.</p>
<p>My nature is such that I would rather attack the problem at its root than wring my hands about it after the fact. I admire those whose first impulse is to comfort the wounded, and think that is very, very valuable, but my impulse is to charge into battle. :D</p>
<p>“I have the impression that, in general, the threat of punishment is not as effective in preventing criminal behavior as is the absence of motivation.”</p>
<p>I actually don’t disagree with that. I don’t think the “threat” of punishment is so very effective in preventing criminal behavior. But I do think punishment itself is. Removing the criminal element from the school population provides the breathing space for other, more life-affirming cultures and behaviors to emerge. As long as the criminals remain in their midst, and are looked up to because they represent the reclamation of power - though in twisted ways - I don’t really think others stand much chance.</p>
<p>The other thing that happens when reports of criminality are NOT made to school officials or coaches but directly to local law enforcement, the entire community immediately has to own the problem, rather than leaving it up to a hothouse institution that has demonstrated its inability to deal.</p>
<p>Yes, and reporting to the police, the outside authority, creates a record they can’t fudge up about the number of rapes reported on the campus.</p>
<p>Given the number of young women who attend college these days, no University can continue to harbor criminal sexual offenders if the girls start to avoid the application pool. </p>
<p>This is why they want the reports to come to the university. UNC, for example, is not truthful in its reporting, and it took the filing of a suit with DOJ by two students and a former dean to get them to even pay attention to what is going on. At this point, one person who was directly responsible for convincing girls not to report rapes has been fired and the entire structure is under investigation. Of course, it took the DOJ coming in to investigate to get the board of regents to act.</p>
<p>The important thing is not to be dishonest about your own institution. If you want change, start with your own school. There’s not one coed campus out there that doesn’t have this problem, as far as I can see. Not yet.</p>
<p>Though I will praise Xavier. They expelled a basketball player for raping a student. The criminal charges did not stick and he went to play for Maryland. But, still, Dick Vitale just went on and on the other day about how “The charges didn’t stick. the charges didn’t stick.” It was so annoying. Xavier should be praised.</p>
<p>“Given the number of young women who attend college these days, no University can continue to harbor criminal sexual offenders if the girls start to avoid the application pool.”</p>
<p>Amherst’s applications went down 8.2% this year, while applications at all their direct competitors went up.</p>
<p>Williams expelled five criminals. It’s not enough. But it’s a start.</p>
<p>This article I think is relevant even though it is about education and not moral code.
We are a competitive & class driven society and we value wealth/power/=status above other criteria.</p>
<p>Perhaps we should consider if wealth & power have gotten us to where we want to go.</p>
<p>Mini—I agree that punishment works, threat of punishment for this type of criminal, not so much bc they see themselves as above the law to begin with.</p>
<p>Would like to say that changing culture requires changing language where necessary. I fully recognize how it was meant on this thread, but we need to be careful to not demonize feminism, and accept words like feminazi. I have seen on other threads on CC recently discussion of feminists as shrill, loud, and to be avoided. When we paint choice and standing up for oneself as a woman as socially unacceptable we make it difficult for women to have a voice, and to walk away from those frat parties, etc. </p>
<p>It can be a subtle form of bullying, making women uncomfortable with their own strength. And of course we need to encourage men and women to see feminism as positive as it frees up both genders to have choices in their lives.</p>
<p>But, most young women today, if they intend to enter the work force and expect to be paid the same amount of money for the same work as men, are feminists, even if that isn’t what they call it.</p>
<p>If they believe that men should be paid more for doing the same work, then maybe they are not feminists. But, I think they are shocked when they find out that men are paid more than they are for the same work, and I’ve never met one young woman who believed that this was an all right thing.</p>
<p>“A day after two high school football players were convicted of raping a 16-year-old girl, authorities arrested two Ohio girls suspected of making online threats against the accuser.”</p>
<p>Hopefully this will eliminate any more threats to the victim.</p>
<p>Poetgrl, I just believe that every woman should be able to define herself as she chooses. I don’t support the notion that if you believe this then you must be that and settle yourself in that box surrounded by these people.</p>
<p>Even women who are traditional members of fundamental religions who are the opposite of feminists have the inviolable right not to be raped.</p>
<p>Regarding “feminism,” I think it’s semantics. I think zooser’s description (able and entitled to stand up for themselves, make good choices and demand respect) is pretty close to MY definition of feminism. It’s a shame the word has a negative connotation. Equal pay for equal work, equal protection under the law, equal access to education and opportunity are not negative or threatening ideas; they are just FAIR. </p>
<p>This thread really has me re-thinking our society’s treatment of women, generally. Sigh…</p>
<p>Yes, and even traditional members of fundamental religions have the right to equal pay.</p>
<p>And, no, I think nobody would put a man in a box for believing he had the right to equal pay, but the idea that wanting to be treated with respect rather than go to a fraternity party would make a young woman a feminazi, as seen in the above quote from the above linked thread… is pretty frightening.</p>
<p>The reason I emphatically reject the term feminism for myself is because I have a son and I see how men have been marginalized, demonized and left behind in our society. I want equal pay for equally qualified candidates, I want men and women equally educated and respected so I will not be part of any movement that is by its very name divisive.</p>
<p>But I don’t expect or want anyone to agree with me, my goal is to live myself in a way that affirms my values and I have the greatest respect for people who do the same even when I don’t agree with the specifics.</p>
<p>I don’t think the problem is so much that people see themselves as above the law as that they recognize the fact it’s extremely unlikely they will be convicted. It’s impossible to know with any certainty what percentage of rapes are reported, but it’s probably less than half. (I’m not referring to false reports. I know there are some. However, I think it’s probable that of people who are really raped, only a minority ever make any sort of official report about it.) And, it is a difficult crime to prosecute. Lots of cases in which complaints are filed are closed with no prosecution because the prosecutor feels there is no chance whatsoever that guilt beyond a reasonable doubt can be proven. </p>
<p>In this case, the young men were only prosecuted because they left a trail of evidence. I am very afraid that the message too many not so good young men will take away is “don’t be dumb enough to post pictures on instagram,” instead of don’t rape. </p>
<p>I’ve been reading an Ohio message board, and I am flabbergasted by the number of people–including adults–who didn’t think the conduct was illegal. Post after post is, “they didn’t rape her.” There’s a long post by someone who “explains” that rape was only a serious crime because there was a possibility of a child–as if it would be perfectly all right to rape someone if you knew she was using birth control. </p>
<p>When it became known that Ohio law considers the conduct rape, they posted that was an example of “political correctness.” </p>
<p>Seriously, they think that what happened to this girl is no big deal. Or they think the only big deal is the photos–and some of them think taking those was only illegal because she’s a minor. </p>
<p>I’m just really discouraged after reading the board. </p>
<p>So, maybe we do have to educate young men that you don’t need to insert your equipment into her for it to be rape. Although, reading the message board, the reaction of some of them would be to try to get the law changed.</p>
<p>I agree that feminism has turned into a slur somewhere along the way for some people.</p>
<p>Just as civil rights needed everyone involved to make the difference, the fight for equal rights for women cant just be led by women.</p>
<p>Equal rights is not a political issue. It is a human concern. You can belong to a patriarchal religion & still be a feminist. You can be Dave Grohl or Eddie Vedder & still be a feminist.;)</p>
<p>I respect other’s views on feminism, I just truly don’t understand how saying you are a feminist, or that you support feminism puts anyone in a box. I really don’t. That was my original point. Having choices is a positive and not a negative.</p>
<p>I have two sons and a daughter and I think feminism helps each one of them have choices in their lives. I hope they all find their way in relationships where they each go after their dreams, and share in the responsibilities of family as well.</p>
<p>Poetgrl, name calling and bullying is abusive no matter who is doing it or why. One doesn’t need to be a feminist to oppose those things and feminists aren’t the particular targets of bullies.</p>
<p>Lindz, my point was that every woman should define herself. It should not be done by others on her behalf. The assumption that someone who supports equal pay must necessarily be a feminist does put her in a box.</p>