<p>I had read that case at UNC, institutional victim blaming. the victim’s fault that the abuser is having consequences…sheesh</p>
<p>clearly a case that should never have been given to the honor court. again, the crime needed to be reported to law enforcement. takes a very strong young woman to go public as she has. I feel for her, and I applaud her.</p>
<p>Sorry I was looking at reports of stats from USC which I found relatively low in comparison. I do applaud the women that go public and am deeply disturbed that Princeton is protecting the predator.</p>
<p>Princeton is doing what is done. They are ALL protecting the predator.</p>
<p>What is interesting if you read the article and not the studies, is that in the famous cases, the women are not afraid to be named, and in the case of UNC, she is being threatened with expulsion for talking to the public. Also, in the tragic case in Notre Dame, same thing. Not just victim blaming, but Victim punishment. It’s an interesting perspective.</p>
<p>It’s why so many of us have begun to call it rape culture. Because it is.</p>
<p>I grew up in the suburbs.One of the nicer areas of Washington, which is saying it was pretty nice. Parents let their kids out at breakfast and didn’t see them again until dinner in the summer. High school kids had new cars but most had earned the money to pay for them.
I didn’t have a car so I spent a lot of time walking from the ages of 14 to 17, when I left school after my father died.
I was also repeatedly assaulted, by people that I knew, or in one incident, my mother knew his mother and they fixed me up on a blind date where I was raped. I was very naive, he asked me if I was on “the pill”, I had no idea what he was talking about. I thought he had driven to a secluded place because he actually wanted to talk to me. ( unfortunately for me, one of the features of a newish suburb is quiet & privacy.)</p>
<p>I was not under the influence of any substance before these assaults, none of them took place at a party or gathering.</p>
<p>However, after I had been attacked and not being able to cope with my internal turmoil any other way, I then began to drink and use substances fairly heavily, for several years.</p>
<p>But I had also learned to pull away from anyone who showed any kindness, because they weren’t to be trusted, and I wasn’t assaulted again by an acquaintance. ( although I had been harassed by strangers)</p>
<p>I also made the decision to get out of the suburbs as soon as I could & I did.
I find it ironic that my daughter had a much better high school experience in an inner city school than I did in mine, since my parents probably thought they were giving me and my sibs, a better life by moving across the lake.</p>
<p>To partially answer your question electron, in my experience, women and girls have been carefully conditioned not to value their own judgement and to negate their feelings.
I was raised hearing " you don’t mean that" and " I know whats best for you" and " only boys can do those things- girls do this instead". Sometimes from my parents and relatives, but also from teachers in school & sunday school.
You learn to not draw attention to yourself and not complain even about harassment that began when you were in kindergarten and repeatedly teased about having a boyfriend.( by adults, incidentally)
I learned that males were listened to more and were more important than females.
Appearance mattered for girls, including strict dress code, for years that meant a skirt or dress, even on the playground even if that limited your play. That gave bullies a target, to get a girl to fall down and show her panties.
Boys werent punished, the girls were just told " to stay away from the boys".
If they were harassing her, she was often told " oh he * likes* you" :rolleyes:
Girls like me who developed overnight were considered to be loose & even other girls laughed nervously when we were harassed and ridiculed. We were being groomed to be abused.</p>
<p>I tried to raise my daughters to value their judgement and decision making skills by giving them opportunities to make decisions as soon as they could sit up.
They are much more sure of their own voice than I was, but still it saddens me to read about other women and girls who still are unaware of their power.</p>
<p>EK4, thanks for sharing. It is horrible and appalling how badly you were treated and that it caused you to turn to drugs and alcohol. Females are groomed to be “pretty” and sexy. We are all bombarded with media shouting that casual hookups and sex is ok, even when fueled by alcohol, other drugs and even if you have to use force to “get what you both want.”</p>
<p>I am glad my D and her GFs do a lot in groups, since there is some safety in numbers. It really is sad and troubling that rape and sexual assault are not effectively addressed at most of the Us our kids attend. I like the 1 in 4 program and want it and others like to spread globally.</p>
<p>University of New Hampshire has a Know Your Power, Bringing in the Bystander program to work on changing social norms. I think these types of programs need to go viral and people should get their schools to embrace them. Glad that these programs are starting and hope they proliferate rapidly.</p>
<p>This really is a societal problem, and that is why we cannot parse out blame as some on here keep goading me to do. (And why? In order to attack and accuse me–a woman–for standing up against the peer pressure of this online society? Ironic. For setting off your PC meter, which apparently is set to “the woman is never even partially responsible for becoming a victim”? To call my views provincial and far worse–to say I’m excusing rapists?)</p>
<p>I couldn’t possibly answer if when a boy is tempted to rape, to what extent he is tempted all alone based on his own desires, his own lack of self control, and his own social conditioning; nor could I guess at what moment those urges become pathological and cease to be biological. I can’t tell you to what extent, if at all, his individual history of community socialization, his treatment by parents and institutions, or his failure to be disciplined sufficiently by adults mitigates his responsibility. Similarly, I can’t determine to what degree a girl’s attittudes, behavior, and decisions are her own responsibility, versus the result of factors like societal influences or past trangressions against her, nor how much, if at all, any of that mitigates her personal responsibility for making unwise choices. I am not God and neither are any of you. It’s safe to say there are plenty of problems to be solved and all of them need to be addressed.</p>
<p>Here’s a real situation that occurred at our middle school a number of years ago. How about you tell me who’s to blame?</p>
<p>At a school dance, under the supervision of teacher chaperones, an 8th grade girl sells “dirty dances” for $5 each to boys. Some boys pay for these. Others plan to do so at the next school dance. I learn of this from parents on the sidelines of my middle school son’s soccer game. The mothers are laughing admiringly about the girl’s precocious entrepreneurial skills. The fathers joke that they will give their sons extra money next time.</p>
<p>Hogwash. Not believing that. Sorry.</p>
<p>And as others have exlpained- rape is a crime of power and control. Does not matter what the girl is wearing. Get over that. Its insulting .</p>
<p>I don’t buy that story either. I cannot imagine a parent finding that funny. And even if it were true, there is a big difference between a young woman voluntarily offering “services” and being forcibly assaulted against her will.</p>
<p>What aren’t you believing? You don’t buy that if the victim had made different choices, such as not drinking excessively underage nor going off alone in a car with the boys, she might not have gotten raped? You are free to disagree with me and I won’t accuse YOU of insulting me/women in general, or lying.</p>
<p>The above is a true story. If you look back in my CC post history many years you will find a post talking about it. I wasn’t suggesting the story was directly related to the causes of rape. The point of the story is to show that young people’s behavior choices and their freedom to engage in that behavior is influenced by many factors. </p>
<p>Oh, and I should have added that despite learning this was going on at the middle school dances, those soccer parents sent their kids to the next one.</p>
<p>
Baloney. Even if in the off chance the story is true, the contrived descriptors you choose to asccribe to your tale are unnecessary.</p>
<p>** eta ** and your above post is a classic straw man argument, as much as I dislike that term. We were responding to the tale you told and also the assertion that a girl’s choice of clothing sets her up for assault. Thats not true. We didnt say anything about underage drinking or riding in a car. Even so, a girl should have the right to feel and be safe, even if she makes bad choices.</p>
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<ol>
<li><p>There is no blame to “parse.” It’s not a “parse” situation. The only person who rapes is a rapist. Only rapist are to blame for rape.</p></li>
<li><p>Nobody is goading you to do anything. I couldn’t care less what you think or do. Whether or not YOU choose to place the blame where it belongs is not germaine or important. The young men are guilty of the crime of rape. </p></li>
<li><p>Statistics support the facts: 1. 30% of women on college campuses will face a sexual assault on campus. 2. 45% of sexual assaults occur in the absence of alcohol. 3. That institutions have consistently shut women up, using the very arguments you are using here.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>That you want to point out that you are a woman “resisting peer pressure” is hillarious to me. Do you think this is unique? The young women arrested for death threats in the Stueben situation prove you have plenty of company. (As I said before, you would benefit from some study of critical theory. The victimized culture frequently enjoys siding with the perpetrators as a way to gain an illusion of safety and power.) </p>
<p>You are just a type of woman who supports the concept of rape culture and the idea that women can provoke rape based on what they are wearing or how they are dancing. Some who support rape culture also believe if a battered woman would just stop arguing with her batterer he would not continue to hit her.</p>
<p>Some of us, however, don’t accept: 1. That men are animals who cannot control themselves when faced with an intoxicated woman. 2. That rape is an act motivated by sex. 3. That the victim has to take blame for the criminal behavior.</p>
<p>Your goal is not to “empower women,” but to judge and blame. If it were to empower women, you would simply acknowledge that all of us have acknowledged that drinking to excess in this case was very risky behavior, and moved on with the rest of us to a sense of shock that a young woman on a college campus is more at risk for sexual assault than anywhere else in America. </p>
<p>This is okay with you. It is not okay with some of us.</p>
<p>But, that’s not a goad. I don’t care if you put the blame where it belongs. </p>
<p>Carry on.</p>
<p>Bravo, poetgrl.</p>
<p>There is quite a bit that can be learned on this thread about rape. It is always helpful to understand peoples thinking that have a different point of view than you do.</p>
<p>However, bullying and ganging up on one another does no one any good and does nothing in helping one another understand each others views. Whether you feel it or not, I feel that the tone of this thread has changed and is no longer a helpful discussion.</p>
<p>I am leaving this thread.</p>
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<p>It may seem “silly” to you, but the VAST amount of data on rape, and it is vast, has suggested quite strongly that rape is about power, anger, desire to humiliate and control, NOT about being horny.</p>
<p>While I think you make some good points, Poetgrl, I tend to think of each person as unique, coming from a different background, and having had a different set of life experiences, thus forming different opinions.</p>
<p>On your second set of points in post 592, humans are animals. That is a fact and, to me, something worth keeping in mind. It doesn’t excuse someone’s committing a crime against another person.</p>
<p>I’m probably going to bow out of the conversation because I find the tone abrasive at times, but I thought the part where people were talking about and trying to address what can be done to make things better is a positive.</p>
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<p>Helpful to who? The UNC and Notre Dame administrators didn’t feel it was a helpful discussion when the girls refused to be shut up, either. One is now dead. The other is a part of claim with the DOJ. In fact, the fact that she refused to shut up after she was told it was time to “you know, just let it go” has already begun to make changes at her university.</p>
<p>If you want to bow out of the conversation, do so. But if you are just here to tell me I am bullying someone? I’m not. I am stating facts, supporting these facts with evidence, and in return, I am being given anecdotes of how women are responsible for their own rape.</p>
<p>It solves nothing to pretend that attitude is not a part of rape culture. It is the bedrock on which it rests.</p>
<p>Poetgrl, as I said, I think you make some good points, but your posts come across as very angry sometimes, too. Anger can be great when it helps motivate a person to constructive action, but it can also drive away people who would otherwise support you in your endeavors. </p>
<p>ETA: I guess I’m trying to encourage you to make the best use of it. You might be hurting yourself, amongst other things, if you don’t.</p>
<p>Just read this article and thought it made some very interesting points about how rape is viewed in our society and by teens specifically.</p>
<p>[The</a> Steubenville Rape Case and the ‘Family Guy’ Generation | TIME.com](<a href=“http://ideas.time.com/2013/03/19/viewpoint-the-steubenville-teens-are-the-family-guy-generation/]The”>The Steubenville Rape Case and the 'Family Guy' Generation | TIME.com)</p>
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<p>Read more: <a href=“The Steubenville Rape Case and the 'Family Guy' Generation | TIME.com”>The Steubenville Rape Case and the 'Family Guy' Generation | TIME.com;
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<p>Be quiet and be a “nice” girl. Say it better and maybe, just maybe we will give you what you want.</p>
<p>In the end, those of us who have been fighting for the rights of rape victims and to change the laws for years, now, have come to realize that only forceful language changes anything in the face of entrenched opinion.</p>
<p>Please, you are making us uncomfortable. Stop talking about it that way. Surely there is a way OUR daughters won’t be raped. Surely there MUST be something wrong with the young women who ARE raped. No. A crime is a crime.</p>
<p>I’d be just as annoyed by anyone who was on here, sans statistics, telling me that murder victims should have known better than to drive on that stretch of road.</p>
<p>ETA: it is absolutely fascinating to me that someone would post more times about being uncomfortable with how I am saying something than with the fact that what I am saying is true. Save your outrage for the universities. I’m simply the messenger you don’t want to hear.</p>