Steubenville

Parent Cafe
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<p>"The courage to heal "is the last book I would ever recommend.
[A</a> suitable case for libel? | Project Reason](<a href=“http://www.project-reason.org/newsfeed/item/A_suitable_case_for_libel/]A”>http://www.project-reason.org/newsfeed/item/A_suitable_case_for_libel/)</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.religioustolerance.org/rmt_tec.htm[/url]”>http://www.religioustolerance.org/rmt_tec.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>When this subject first came up on CC, at least when it first came to my notice, the focus of the discussion was the issue of consent in situations where there was not, perhaps, a predator and victim, but bad choices on the part of two kids. The idea that two <em>equally drunk</em> kids could fall into bed together and have sex, with both apparently consenting, but that the girl would be incapable of consenting while the boy was assumed to be capable, and thus culpable, worries a lot of parents of sons. Justifiably. I remember one person asking, rather plaintively, “If two drunk guys go to bed together and have sex, did they rape each other?”</p>

<p>However, over time I have come to agree with what some people were saying at that time: that kind of case is not the big problem. Yes, it is important that kids of both sexes be educated about consent and about the perils of combining over-consumption of alcohol with sex. Or just over-consumption of alcohol in general, for many reasons. But it seems that most campus rapes are perpetrated by serial predators.</p>

<p>I find it hard to believe that–with extremely rare exceptions-- kids are born predators, just as I find it hard to believe that some kids are born victims. Something happens that turns them into predators. That needs to be addressed, as a society, IMHO. In addition to prompt legal punishment/intervention.</p>

<p>Regarding schools airing their dirty linen on the subject of assault and rape: you can see in this thread what happens when schools actually address the issue and publish the results. People label them as “known to be worse” than everywhere else, something that is quite likely completely untrue. Perhaps a more constructive response would be to laud them for opening addressing the problem.</p>

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<p>Apologies, don’t have time to read that link, EK, but The Courage to Heal and the related books have been excellent resources for survivers of known abuse. What specifically do you find problematic with these books? Your post was pretty critical/strong.</p>

<p>** ETA*** Looked at the first sentence or 2. That relates to issues of “false memories” which is a different topic. “Repressed/Recovered” Memories, as now posted in the second link you have now added, is a hotly debated and potentially problematic issue. But the issue of trying to “recover suppressed memories” (IMO not a good thing to pursue) and healing from clearly recalled abuse are separate issues, and people have found the book helpful in the healing process of the latter.</p>

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<p>I don’t know if anyone left in this thread is interested in the Steubenville event itself.
If so, you might want to read and listen to the items in this link to get an idea of one family’s experience. [Special</a> Assignment: Family at “house number two” breaking… | <a href=“http://www.wtov9.com%5B/url%5D”>www.wtov9.com](<a href=“http://www.wtov9.com/videos/news/special-assignment-family-at-house-number-two/vtw9p/]Special”>http://www.wtov9.com/videos/news/special-assignment-family-at-house-number-two/vtw9p/)</a></p>

<p>Now, having read some of the transcript of the probable cause hearing and of the trial, let me assure you that all of those who testified said that this family did not serve anyone any alcohol. </p>

<p>I personally don’t believe some of the father’s version of events, but I’d rather not say which parts,as I think you all can make your own determinations. However, it is clear, not only from the full interview with the father, but from the testimony of the witnesses, that these parents made their home the place to hang out with adult supervision. These were not uninvolved, uncaring parents. </p>

<p>Now, some of you may feel it’s more important to discuss the broader issues than to continue to talk about the incident itself. However, I think this family’s experience raises important issues. </p>

<p>First, what does a family do if some of their sons friends show up uninvited and drunk out of their minds? In this case, they were asked to leave. Father claims his son did make sure they had a designated driver…which means it is probable that someone who participated in or watched the actual rape had not been drinking at all. Should the family have done more than that? </p>

<p>Second, do we want to encourage future Alexandra Goddards? Vigilantes? Some of you may have seen the on-line petition which asked the college his son attends to expel him. Is this fair?</p>

<p>Some of the young men Anonymous named as rapists have been able to establish that they did not attend any of the parties. Yet, when you google their names, the allegation that they are rapists appear. If you really follow the story, you know that they had nothing to do with it. Will some future prospective employer bother to find out, or will it just hire someone else?</p>

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<p>My problem with it is that " recovered" memories have been proven not to exist.
People have a problem forgetting- not remembering.</p>

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Many of you may remember my thread saga when we hosted the post junior prom party many moons ago. I made it very clear to the attendees that we would (a) not tolerate and (b) confiscate if found, any alcohol. We also made it clear that safety was a priority and that if someone was intoxicated we would, if necessary, transport them to a medical facility for evaluation, and that we would also immediately contact their parents (especially as we wer not authorized to sign for treatment of a minor). Our house. Our rules.</p>

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<p>Correct, EK. I am not a believer of “recovered memories”. That is separate, IMO, from helping a survivor of KNOWN abuse work through their healing process and finding their voice.</p>

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<p>I actually do feel for the family IF their story is true. I am the house that people would show up at if they were super drunk because they know I’d take care of them and get them home safely. It does seem like their son wasn’t even in the room at the time and was just trying to help.</p>

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<p>thanks for the link, just watched that video Jonri—</p>

<p>it is reported that the victim vomited in his basement, and they had to clean it up, then they sent her and Mays and Richmond in a car w a “designated” driver. Where was this designated driver supposed to be taking them? He also claims that while that infamous video was recorded his son was outside. Personally, I find this a little hard to believe. He complains that these kids showed up drunk uninvited. Does that mean that the boys who were recording that video were not drunk? It appeared to me that they were under the influence. </p>

<p>If this occurred in my home, I would have called the girl’s family to come get her, as I would be concerned about possible alcohol poisoning, and the risk of a bad outcome if left unattended. I would hope an adult/parent would do this if it were my d in such a drunken state being carried around by a couple of teens. imho, he showed a lack of adult judgment about the situation, and only seemed concerned for his own son.</p>

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<p>I’m glad to hear you say that because many of your posts seemed (to me, anyway) to suggest otherwise.</p>

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<p>It may not work in every situation but I don’t see how you can say “it’s not working” as if you know that no one has ever avoided being victimized by avoiding dangerous situations. If even one woman has avoided being attacked by locking a door, avoiding a drunken party, or getting someone trustworthy to escort her to her car late at night, then it’s working. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.</p>

<p>Yes, lindz I have read the posts from those who have been assaulted while in their dorms and sober and they are heartbreaking. I never said that anyone but the assailant could have prevented those cases or that those women were not sufficiently careful. Certainly, being self-protective doesn’t work in every case.</p>

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<p>No it does not. We are all cautioned constantly to password protect everything we do on the internet, shred our receipts and statements, lock doors, and don’t give your bank account info over the phone to strange callers in order to avoid identity theft and fraud.</p>

<p>Should we stop warning people about all those things too? Those crimes are committed by criminals looking for a soft target and if at least some people can protect themselves then they should do it. The police may be able to solve many crimes but they can rarely prevent them. Like it or not, that responsibility lies with all of us and is at the heart of “see something, say something”. It’s irresponsible to suggest that we should never discuss self-protection.</p>

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<p>Around here it is a big lock in at the high school and not a big after party.</p>

<p>last year, after the lock in there was an after party. A young man’s parents offered to host and so we, the parents of the girls, agreed that at least one of us should be in attendance, as well. My H went over and hung out in front of bad early morning television for the four hours. </p>

<p>It’s not that we didn’t trust the boys’ parents. It’s just that I can’t think of any father of daughters who would have sent that particularly passed out girl out with those boys carrying her. At the very least she would have been made to stay, at most an ambulance would have been called, and most likely her parents would have been called to come get her.</p>

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This is what I can’t get past. If an adult KNEW she was in this condition why wouldn’t he have called 911? She could have died.</p>

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<p>Joblue–but you called rape a crime of opportunity.</p>

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<p>Jo, when did I say it should stop? I said it’s not working. It’s not. It might mean that girl A is getting raped instead of girl B but the rape is still happening. Cases of rape are increasing (or just being reported more) so it’s obviously NOT working on a grand scale. I didn’t say stop. I didn’t say that we should all get wasted and go off with strangers. No, obviously not because that’s stupid on many different levels. I’m saying the approach isn’t working because girls are still being raped in massive numbers.</p>

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<p>joblue wrote:</p>

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<p>JoBlue this is from my post yesterday afternoon, post #558. </p>

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<p>I’ve never had a problem with what you have written here. Unless you are attempting to say that the victim is to blame for her rape. In that case, I have an issue with you.</p>

<p>Early on the thread, the GFG began by saying “nice” girls don’t go to parties, implying that “nice” girls don’t get raped. What is the opposite of that statement? She also brought up “Slutty cheerleaders.” And implied that somehow a girl who went to these parties knew what she was getting into… because she might want to have consensual sex. Wanting consensual sex is very different from asking to be raped.</p>

<p>So, if you think my responses have been to you, they have not been. And I stand by what I have said: Rapist are responsible for rape. It is a crime. Nobody causes rapists to rape. They commit a crime.</p>

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<p>Not implied, explicitly stated.</p>

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<p>It most certainly is. What I see in the world at large is a judgmental attitude towards girls who seek out casual, consensual sex. Because they are doing something morally wrong it’s almost their just rewards to be raped for it. For some inexplicable reason, males who seek out casual, consensual sex are NOT seen as being immoral and deserving of punishment.</p>

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<p>Well, it’s her body. If she wants to have sex, it’s her business.</p>

<p>But, it’s not his body. If he wants to have sex and she doesn’t? It’s not his body.</p>

<p>What part of this is difficult to understand?</p>

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<p>^^^^^It seems a simple concept. So many just.dont.get.it.</p>

<p>You can see a photo of a rape victim beaten and bloody, and we will still have to hear from someone that this person had in the past been very promiscuous. It’s so COMPLETELY irrelevant to the crime at hand, yet it comes up again and again. It’s as if to a large segment of people, once you’ve crossed a line of promiscuity (who gets to draw this line? the judgmental one), you have lost your right to ever say no again to anyone who wants it. That’s just despicable and I for one am sick of it.</p>

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<p>In case you are interested in the link for the video interview with the Howarth family - house #2 in Steubenville - but can’t play it - here is some of the text:</p>

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<p>I agree that it is perplexing that Marty Howarth did not try to call the girl’s parents or the police/911.</p>

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<p>" People label them as “known to be worse” than everywhere else, something that is quite likely completely untrue."</p>

<p>The President of Williams said that the data show Williams to have higher rates of rape and sexual assault than other NESCAC schools. And Amherst’s were higher than Williams’. Other than that, I don’t know to what you are referring.</p>