<p>…what kind of animals are these?</p>
<p>[Text</a> Messages that led to convictions in the Steubenville Rape Trial | Mobile Broadcast News](<a href=“http://www.mobilebroadcastnews.com/NewsRoom/Don-Carpenter/Text-Messages-led-convictions-Steubenville-Rape-Trial]Text”>http://www.mobilebroadcastnews.com/NewsRoom/Don-Carpenter/Text-Messages-led-convictions-Steubenville-Rape-Trial)</p>
<p>I didn’t think I could hear anything worse about this case.</p>
<p>I have never been to Ohio - what makes them so nuts?
[U.S</a>. tenant behind in payments gets whipped on bare buttocks by landlord](<a href=“Home | Vancouver Sun”>Home | Vancouver Sun)</p>
<p>Henry Rollins has some thoughtful comments.</p>
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</p>
<p>[Henry</a> Rollins Comments On Steubenville Rape Verdict | Under the Gun Review](<a href=“http://www.underthegunreview.net/2013/03/18/henry-rollins-comments-on-steubenville-rape-verdict/]Henry”>http://www.underthegunreview.net/2013/03/18/henry-rollins-comments-on-steubenville-rape-verdict/)</p>
<p>The things described in these last three posts and linked are terribly disturbing. WOW! That poster is beyond awful–what’s to explain? What is and has it taught his Ds? The texts show no conscience or remorse. Hope the tenant owns the building after he sues the landlord or at least a few years of rent.</p>
<p>Wow, still so much snarkness! What’s the point of reiterating you don’t believe me? Power and domination? Because people who want to intimidate others sometimes just keep loudly insisting on their viewpoint while making diminishing statements about their opponent so the other person backs off and shuts up to escape the verbal abuse. So few of you defenders of women have spoken up for respect as I’ve been encircled by the mean girls on this thread. </p>
<p>I’m not unenlightened about the assetion that rape is about power and domination. That’s not a new expert opinion; it’s been stated for many years now and I know it as well as you. But rape is still classified as a SEX crime, is it not? The foorball player didn’t sit his massive 200 lb. body on top of the smaller victim and make her repeat 100 times, “Uncle! You’re the best football player in Steubenville.” He didn’t hold a gun to the girl’s head until she cooked him a steak dinner. She wasn’t forced at knifepoint to prepare protein drinks for the whole high school football team. In rape, the manner chosen to dominate is a sexual one. That’s why we need to look at sex and gender attitudes in the culture.</p>
<p>Furthermore, I know one of the rape crisis counselors at our local hospital. (I have posted about knowing her before, so you can search CC archives before you accuse me again of lying.) She is on call on the weekends at a hospital near our state flagship, so almost all of the girls that come in to see her are college students. The standard scenario is just like the teen party I wrote about earlier. Inhibitions are lowered, and things happen. Once sober, the girls realize they’ve been violated, or suspect they have and want to know for certain. One reason they are hesitant to report is that they can’t remember much or anything at all about what happened, and the whole issue of consent is a sticky one when alcohol is involved. Also, the girls worry it was a guy they know who’s in their social circle, and so they don’t feel brave enough to press charges against him because of the social repercussions. </p>
<p>As for the anecdote, I did express my views to the soccer parents. I don’t remember everything they said, but they acted like I was an uptight prude and started talking about how they don’t understand these parents with their heads in the sand who think their kids aren’t going to drink or have sex. They talked about planing to let their underage teens drink safely at home. I recall speaking to a friend on the PTO about the school dance, and she told me the school was already aware of what happened.</p>
<p>Use of hyperbole doesn’t add benefit to the conversation.</p>
<p>Those texts are really quite disturbing, jonri</p>
<p>Totally agree with the post (cant find it at the moment) that says that education re:the definition of rape should be part of all middle/HS sex ed classes. The bragging/bravado/fist pump attitude of the rapists is a sad reflection of some cultural mores.</p>
<p>TheGFG, I am starting to believe your story after reading the Abu Graib piece. Where I live is SO different from what you describe at the school dance that I can’t even imagine it being socially acceptable for parents to make jokes about it. What part of the country are you in? City or town? Are the people generally educated, or not? I am curious because I wonder if a lot of us just can’t fathom that these sort of attitudes prevail. I also read the Steubenville text thread and was utterly disgusted. Call me naive, but I can’t think of a single kid I know from our giant high school who would do that, let alone have friends around him participating and egging him on. But where I live could not be further from Steubenville culturally.</p>
<p>I think the reason people jumped on you was that some of what you said in earlier posts suggested that victims play a role in what happens to them–that the way they dress or behave with boys “justifies” an outcome like rape. So let me ask you this: does the 8th grader selling dirty dances “deserve” to be raped? If that were your daughter, and years later she was raped, would you think she “had it coming”? And what are the terms of this punishment…that any guy ever could claim he was “tempted” by her because of her past? What if she was in college now, walking home from her library job where she was very conservatively dressed, and she was attacked by a stranger? Do you see where this all goes?</p>
<p>Speaking of our culture, when I returned to my home page, there was a photo of Dolly Parton and an article about celebrities insured body parts. </p>
<p>Also, my 14 yr. old D just attended a local women’s conference organized to empower teen girls for success in high school and beyond. It offered workshops about career options and various topics of interest to women. The event was really wonderful in a lot of ways and I’m grateful for it. However, the primary sponsors were cosmetics and beauty supply companies so D came home with two bags of free samples of makeup, creams, and perfumes. It struck me that in the end, we still send a loud and clear message to girls that while education matters, it’s still about their looks. Sigh.</p>
<p>Wouldn’t elite liberal arts colleges be the opposite of Steubenville culturally? It happens everywhere. I think a lot of these kids are very capable of giving one appearance to adults and acting very differently among their peers.</p>
<p>Sally, I live in a middle class suburb in the NE. There’s a mixture of people in our town, but most whom I’ve encountered through my kids EC’s are college-educated professionals. The soccer woman was a real estate agent back then at least, her husband a businessman of some kind. The mom in our neighborhood who viewed herself as the hip, enlightened mom and who used to let her teenagers and their friends drink at their house, is a bookkeeper who works with her accountant husband in their small tax accounting business.</p>
<p>I never said a victim’s behavior justifies or causes rape, I said it could increase her risk of being raped. I stand by that. I think some of you should answer a question for me now. If one of the toddlers from that horrific nursery school environment grows up and rapes a girl, will you think he’s the only one to blame for the crime?</p>
<p>I was watching a tv show over the weekend in which a 14 year-old girl was being prepared for her first boyfriend with anticipation of getting married at around 15, and really little girls were wearing incredibly sexy clothing. I live in an area where marriage at 15 doesn’t happen, but little girls dress and are encouraged to act in a precociously sexy manner. The point of this is just because you haven’t personally seen something doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. I work for a very nice company with very well educated people who conduct themselves with dignity and grace. It is a very different world from other places that might be very close by where dirty dancing in a school dance wouldn’t be outside of the norm and 13 year-old fifth graders get caught having sexual contact and the parents don’t care. My belief (feel free to tee off on me) is that the culture of educated people is very different from the culture of less educated people and might be unfamiliar to those of you who come from educated families and have never been or mingled with the different kinds of cultures. This has nothing to do with rape, the story at hand, or women in general. Just an observation that when calling someone a liar about her own experience, it should be considered that this is a very big country with some very different people. How many of you would believe the strange addiction people if it didn’t suddenly become public? How about the rattlesnakes in the hoarder house? Those things are shocking to me because I’ve never seen them, but dirty dancing for money? Not even a little surprising in some quarters. Being proud to be connected? As common as dirt in my area.</p>
<p>^Some are, electronblue. I think it’s the equality of the sexes on campus that is at issue. Read about Dartmouth–it has a very male-dominated culture even though there are plenty of female students. And many people would not send their daughters there as a result of the perceived social imbalance and lack of respect for women among a segment of the student body. Others say the same about Williams and Amherst–that they are upscale versions of the “good old boys’ network.” But you don’t often hear the same criticism of Swarthmore or Carleton or Grinnell, which seem more progressive.</p>
<p>Use the examples posted by The GFC and by me, pages and pages back: she discusses the cultural acceptance of “dirty dancing” by an eighth grader, and I posted a link to a story about a fraternity party at Amherst being advertised with a drawing of a half-naked woman roasting on a spit while a pig stands by smoking a cigar. Apparently soccer parents in The GFG’s community found the dirty-dancing concept wildly amusing, and the Amherst boys thought dehumanizing and degrading a woman would be an appealing way to get people to attend their party. I can’t see either of those things being tolerated or considered funny for even one minute in my midwestern college town or any of the LACs my son applied to (or the one he is attending).</p>
<p>No, I know. I wished I could go back and change that line, last nite, but the time had expired to edit. I’m sure that there is some issue with dirty dancing at middle school dances. H and I talk about the horrible music people let their kids listen to, all the time. So, my apologies, GFG. </p>
<p>As for the young man growing up to be a rapist? I think that is an interesting question, and yet, I still believe, in the end, we are all responsible for our own actions. I hold the pedophile priests responsible for their actions, but the Cardinals who protected them, moreso. I hold Sandusky responsible for his actions. I also suspect the pedophiile priests and Sandusky were victims of abuse.</p>
<p>I think the article Jonri & mrscollege linked talks about this very well, about the similarities of rape to torture, the similarities, in fact, to some of the staged pictures in Stuebenville and in Abu Graib.</p>
<p>In my personal opinion, the most damaging thing to happen since the arrival of the internet is the easy availability of internet porn. And, I wish they would look into the kind of internet porn these boys were using. Not because I want to invade their privacy, but just because I think it is the thing that is most destroying our young boys.</p>
<p>In the end, we have to address the boys and their behavior because we have been addressing the women’s behavior for decades, now. It’s time to look at the perpetrators, imho.</p>
<p>
This is a very interesting point. I’m turning it over in my mind.</p>
<p>There is nothing so dehumanizing as putting a naked woman in a box, which is exactly what pornography does. It takes the personal connection out of sex and (I don’t know if this makes sense to anyone but me) decouples the act. In pornography, there is technically a partner, but it’s not an actual human being.</p>
<p>Hmm. I’m pondering this very seriously.</p>
<p>[The</a> Phoenix | Sexual Assault On Campus: A Bigger Problem Than It Seems](<a href=“Sexual Assault On Campus: A Bigger Problem Than It Seems - The Phoenix”>Sexual Assault On Campus: A Bigger Problem Than It Seems - The Phoenix)</p>
<p>I don’t think the Amherst t-shirt appeals to the majority there. And even to those who abhor the content I guess there are some freedom of speech issues at hand that the administration did not want to get into. It also comes in handy for identifying campus d-bags from a distance.</p>
<p>Regarding the point about education: in some ways I think that higher levels of education and wealth lead to a higher level of entitlement thinking among teens, and even parents in terms of what they will do to keep their kids out of “trouble”. Case in point, I was listening to the radio during my commute this morning and a boy was “phone tapping” his mom by having the radio guy pretend to be his principal calling to tell her he was in trouble. During the course of the call, the mom ranted on the kid about how she kept bailing him out “when you got arrested last year…and when your girlfriend said you kept calling her and calling her” and how she got him out of trouble for that, but now his principal was going to call Duke and she couldn’t get him not to. The point being, she clearly knew her son had broken the law, that later he was harassing his girlfriend, and that he allegedly did something serious enough to warrant a call to the college where her son was accepted, but her instinct was to get him out of it, not address the actual problem. </p>
<p>I still wonder why more attention isn’t being paid to the parents and coaches in Steubenville. The one dad who went public about how they are being vilified (link several pages ago) still never explained where he was during the all night party, why he never called the police, why he had his teen son “take care of it” etc.</p>
<p>Earlier comments about hip moms, dirty dancing etc, reminded me of some things I thought were peculiar in our high school’s sports culture. </p>
<p>Teams chose T-shirts as sort of a team bonding thing (I guess) with slogans that I thought were out of line. The booster moms from the teams thought up the idea of the shirts and sold the shirts to raise funds.</p>
<p>There were more, but here are the slogans I remember:</p>
<p>Swim Team: “We’re good…but we’re best when we’re wet!” </p>
<p>Volleyball Team: Written across chest “Can’t touch this!” Back of shirt shows a volleyball being “killed”–unable to be touched.</p>
<p>Cross country team: “We go the distance!”</p>
<p>I was in the room when the Volleyball shirt was introduced. Sorry to say, I didn’t bring up my objections. The mom who introduced the concept to the parents/athletes in the room seemed pretty proud of her cleverness.</p>
<p>My friend had a daughter on the swim team (We’re best when we’re wet!) She objected to the coach, AD, and other parents. She was scoffed at as being prudish.</p>
<p>What do you all make of this? I’m stumped.</p>
<p>Whether or not the middleschooler was dirty dancing or selling lap dances was not what I questioned. What I found hard to believe was that “The mothers are laughing admiringly about the girl’s precocious entrepreneurial skills.” This seems like conjecture. Would these mothers really admire this behavior? Really? That is what I personally find hard to believe. </p>
<p>I am less bothered by the cosmetic industry sponsoring a womens career program than I am by the thought that some male teens/young adults find bravado/pride in sexually assaulting others. Thats is horribly disturbing and a sad, sad reflection of our culture, regardless of in what community it occurs.</p>
<p>** crossposted with northernbadger. Wow- those tshirt slogans are inappropriate for HS girls teams. Yuk.</p>
<p>When my S was in 5th or 6th grade, there was a story going around that some middle-schoolers had attended what was known as the “blow job party.” Reportedly, the girls, or at least some girls, at this party serviced the boys. My understanding was that when this got out it was dealt with in some fashion, including by the school, although it did not happen at the school or at a school-sponsored event. </p>
<p>I am quite sure that this story was true, given what I was told about it and who told me. I don’t know more about what happened. I do know that the few people who mentioned it to me were horrified. (Not primarily because the kids were exploring sexually, although everyone thought this was going MUCH too far at their age, even if it had been reciprocal, but because the girls were SERVICING the boys.)</p>
<p>The next year, another mother told me that she had returned a missed call on her home phone, only to have it answered by a couple of girls who thought it was her S returning their call, who gigglingly said, “X, are you going to come over and have sex with us?” When she identified herself, they were COMPLETELY UNEMBARRASSED and just asked to speak with him! One of these girls had been sexually aggressive since at least 5th grade, and probably before. My S was unfortunate enough to be in a group project with her, and he complained that all she ever wanted to do was talk about her social life and who she was “dating.” In 5th grade! Her parents were divorced, and when she was at her father’s house she apparently ran wild.</p>
<p>The dances for middle-schoolers, from what I observed, included mostly kids who were, with varying degrees of age-appropriate hesitation and shyness, experiencing their first B/G socializing, and a few kids who would bury themselves in the middle of the pack and grind.</p>
<p>So when The GFG says that a girl was being paid $5 for “dirty dancing,” it doesn’t surprise me in the least. I am surprised and appalled that PARENTS would react in that way. That is an indication of something that is deeply wrong.</p>
<p>And yeah, I think that ALL of what I describe above is part of “rape culture,” including precocious sexual aggression by hyper-sexualized little girls who have absorbed the message that that is the female route to power.</p>
<p>
Jym, that doesn’t surprise me at all, I’ve seen similar things. And even worse things. It’s just not uncommon in some communities for women to hyper-sexualize younger girls. Also, what I would consider “younger” is age appropriate for some.</p>
<p>When my son was in fifth grade, his teacher (wonderful woman) was pregnant, so a lot of the moms took turns coming in and helping out in the classroom to make things easier for her. She was an inclusive woman who liked to involve the families, so we were there a lot. I make jokes about myself, but it is true that the girls in that class were taller, heavier, bigger than I, but they were also sexually mature, aware and much moe active than I could have expected. It was completely accepted by their mothers. This is just not that unusual in some places.</p>