<p>Maybe it’s because my time spent in a Gymnasium was pretty awful, but I still think that Germany’s school system is in dire need of reform. I believe there is something wrong with dividing people up after 4th grade, and be it that those that choose the Gymnasium are by the time they graduate fed with the notion that they are inherently better because they went to school longer and will go on to continue to university. This is only further supported by the fact that the parents of these students in most cases did go to university as well. </p>
<p>@Germany2012 Intelligent parents have more intelligent kids on average because they usually earn enough money to afford their children opportunities such as tutoring, extra lessons, foreign exchange programs etc, thus the kids perform better in school and are perceived as “more intelligent”. There is nothing wrong with affording this things to your kids. However there is something incredibly wrong with ignoring how strongly socio-economic level is correlated with education. Especially in Germany. Come university-time, kids with richer parents are less likely to be in a position that they have to work part-time to support themselves and thus have a higher chance of having a high GPA and finishing on time.</p>
<p>While the German system might yield better outcomes than the American system I still think that the German system is far from perfect, or even good. It works, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t work better.</p>
<p>I was hoping for this thread to die, but now I am curious: do you have any concrete suggestions for reform?</p>
<p>I like the current tracking system. And I am saying this as someone who went to a Hauptschule and only later switched to a Gymnasium. </p>
<p>Grundschule-style comprehensive education (where everyone takes the same classes) doesn’t work: some students are bored out of their mind while some fall further and further behind. American-style comprehensive education (where students mix and match classes of different difficulty levels as they please) is problematic because there are no standardized credentials. It has fostered a system where the school name is more important than the credential being earned, with families spending way too much money for an education from the “right” schools.</p>
<p>The German tracking system combines the advantages of well-defined degrees with the freedom of choosing classes that make sense for every individual student. </p>
<p>The biggest disadvantage I saw is that too many middle-class families try to push their students through a Gymnasium when the child is clearly overwhelmed. But that seems better addressed by promoting the “zweite Bildungsweg” than through wide-spread educational reforms. Alternatives are already in place; people just don’t take advantage of them.</p>
<p>The other big problem seems to be immigrant children being tracked incorrectly. That problem too could be solved by (1) educating their parents about the structure of the German school system, and (2) offering a transition year for new immigrant students, where they can focus on learning the German language before a decision is made which school to send them to.</p>
<p>I guess it hugely depends on where you went to school on whether it’s working or not. I know that my state likes to reform a little bit too much and essentially just changed the entire secondary school system to a point where I am not sure anymore what exactly is going on. </p>
<p>My school experience was marked by what you described, that too many middle-class parents try to push their kids through a Gymnasium - no matter what. And by doing so they didn’t do a favor to anybody. I also agree with the problem with immigrant children. </p>
<p>I am not arguing for an American system, I am argued for a lot more transparency in the current system. </p>
<p>I guess one thing that I would like to see is that the school system needs to be unified - at least to a certain degree - across the country. An Abitur from Hamburg is almost worthless compared to one from Bavaria, because the standards are so different. I am glad I didn’t move states while I was in school. I don’t see having a federal system working particularly well when it comes to Abitur-standards, especially in regards to university admission. </p>
<p>Another thing I believe could make a difference would be an unified school until at least 6th grade, if not longer. Kids mature a lot mentally after 4th grade and I think putting a child into a Hauptschule or Gymnasium prematurely can do more harm than good. This would also potentially help do away with abysmal Hauptschulen. It might be different elsewhere but I feel like Hauptschulen in my state are pretty much forgotten about and only known as the place where no one wants to teach anyway. Not to mention that a Hauptschul-diploma is almost worthless by now and in some regions won’t lead to an apprenticeship, because some graduates lack even basic spelling skills. It might be worth thinking to abolish it, and I think my state is on its way to doing so. </p>
<p>I might be frustrated with the German school system as much as I am as my experience was pretty bad - both socially and academically.</p>
<p>Luckily Hauptschulen seemed to work pretty well in my region (rural Bavaria). And they are certainly not forgotten. In fact, the state has more students graduate from Hauptschulen than Gymnasien. </p>
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At which level would you teach them though? There’s a huge gap between Hauptschulen and Gymnasien in 5th grade. Gymnasiasten learn English at twice the pace of Hauptschueler, for example, and take their exams with essay-style questions. Meanwhile, Hauptschueler take multiple choice tests while teachers put a lot of effort into remediation - teaching basic math and writing skills to students who were left behind in elementary school. If you continued comprehensive elementary education longer, the weaker students would probably fall even further behind. </p>
<p>And that’s not even mentioning electives yet. Hauptschueler learn how to use a sewing machine, how to keep a kitchen sanitary and take field trips to local manufacturing businesses while Gymnasiasten study music and art history. Which one would you prioritize for all students?</p>
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What would they replace them with? Whichever school becomes the new default for low-achieving students will most likely face the same problems.</p>
<p>B@rium I see your points. I always felt that the difference in pace was often due to teachers not even trying rather than an actual learning difference, but that might be just my impression. I think in general Bavaria’s school system is working well, at least that’s my impression. This is definitely not the case with Hamburg’s school system. </p>
<p>I am not aware that electives like that are offered at Hauptschulen, it might be state specific or I have been practicing my ignorance. I don’t know how I feel about those subjects, they seem more appropriate for a Ausbildung than school. </p>
<p>My state has introduced a comprehensive school, leading to both Realschulabschluss, Abitur and I believe Hauptschulabschluss but I am not sure on that one in addition to keeping the regular Gymnasium. I feel like this might be a good solution, as it would allow students to take classes according to their abilities, I think. It’s too early to say how it will turn out and I wouldn’t be surprised if they decide to change it all up again, because that’s what they do every two years.</p>
<p>The one big problem I still see is that the German school system instills elitism in its students. At least in my experience, Gymnasiasten always think they are better than others, that their jobs are somehow more important and that everyone who goes to a Hauptschule must be incredibly stupid or else they wouldn’t be there. And I think this might be a direct product of the early segregation.</p>
<p>It’s interesting how different our perceptions are. I’ve been putting a fair bit of blame on the elementary schools: if all students left elementary school with grade-level language and math skills, Hauptschulen wouldn’t have to do remedial work in the first place. </p>
<p>Though I do realize that the atmosphere in Hauptschulen may not always be conductive to learning, especially in the more diverse inner city schools. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hauptschulen worked in Bavaria simply because it’s a homogeneous rural state. It certainly helps that our Hauptschulen cater to the children of farmers and blue collar workers who value a hands-on education; rather than poorly-integrated immigrant children or rebellious gang members who just don’t care about education at all.</p>
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Did you ever compare Lehrplaene and/or textbooks? In Bavaria, the difference in pace is state-mandated. I assume that’s true in other states too.</p>
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You know that I am biased because I attended a Hauptschule myself. But I honestly prefer hands-on Hauptschul classes over the academic Gymnasium curriculum. I learned about food safety, how to repair a car, how to use a sewing machine, how to use welding technology, even basic accounting procedures - skills that are still serving me well. I also got a close-up look at dozens of careers that are popular among Hauptschul graduates. But why would a 10- or 14-year-old care about art history or music theory or Latin or literature? Sure, you can torture the more academically inclined (or obedient) students through those classes, but I am willing to bet that most students don’t actually get very much out of them. </p>
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Unfortunately, segregation at any point in time seems to foster a sense of elitism. The American system is a good example of this. American classrooms are often integrated up through 8th grade. But as soon as they hit high school, the honors students feel better than the regular and remedial-track students. And just think about all the fuss surrounding prestigious college admissions… (Also note that longer integrated education does not close the gap between low-achieving and high-achieving students. Quite to the contrary. That gap seems to be bigger in the US than in any other country!) </p>
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I assume that they are not just putting 3 different schools in the same building, but actually teaching joint classes? An interesting experiment. I’ll be curious to see how that works out.</p>