A friend’s son is a senior and is currently applying to schools. Her son is a good student (3.7 UWGPA) and National Merit Commended. Has some extracurriculars but nothing too impressive.
She told me the schools he was applying to and it was the “standard” set of schools plus Stanford. She said that she thought he had maybe only a 20% chance of getting into Stanford. She asked me what I thought about his chances and while I would put this chance as just about 0%, I responded " It’s so competitive but you just never know"
Question for others is how do you respond to parents with super inflated opinions of their children? Is my brushoff answer appropriate?
Part of me wants to burst their delusional bubble, and thankfully I’m successful each and every time to suppress such urge…even for the closest friends, thereby maintaining such friendships. I even hear people referring to average ACT and SAT scores as “my high stats kid”. Just this month, a very close friend tells me her son with 1480 SAT, 700 Math 2 and 650 Physics is applying early to Penn Engineering because he has a 3.95 GPA and is in the top percentile of his class. Trying sincerely to wrap my head around this decision, I asked what does his counselor think about this. I’m told: “He said go for it because you only have one shot at ED”.
I guess everything is relative and we never know the details, but I really love your answer and will be using it going forward! It’s much better than the approach I took to try and understand the rationale behind such decisions…which never works.
I usually say something like what you did. then ask about matches & safeties in case he doesn’t get in. I remember a parent like that in D2’s class. His list was MIT, Mudd, Caltech, etc. I knew this kid very well, and knew he wasn’t getting into any of those places. But his mom was so confident, I was at a loss. I figured out GC would encourage at least one safety though. In the end he didn’t even get into our state flagship, but he had applied to one safety. That is where he went.
Another kid in her class applied to all Ivies and top colleges, and at the last minute added an app to a local not too highly ranked LAC. I heard he argued with the GC about that last app, but did it. Skunked everyplace but the LAC, and that is where he went.
Why would you say something other than being totally supportive. As long as the list includes a balanced group of schools, there is no reason not to try a reach. In the end if you are correct, the admissions decision will inform them of that point. Shouldn’t be you. The most I would do is suggest a safe school if a friends child’s list is unbalanced.
I’m in the smile and nod and “what are his safeties?” camp. Many of us have been in the position of having an over-inflated view of our kids, especially when it’s a firstborn and you really don’t know how they compare to their peers. Experience teaches humility. It’s not our job to school other parents.
Although I’m a fan of the “smile and nod” approach, to be social I might add something like “wow S/D sounds amazing, good luck to your S/D and to you” (mom/dad/grandparent).
I don’t think its about their opinon of their children being super inflated, so much as first time parents don’t realize that times have changed, and these elite tippety- top schools’ missions have changed from the time they as parents applied.
The super elites are more about whom should they give the opportunity to? And without being hooked, your chances are slim, including URM, first gen, from North Dakota, need full pay etc. Most still think that you just need top GPA and top scores. Those open the door, but won’t get you through.
To me, if they have a reasonable set of colleges and they want to apply to a super reach, go right ahead.
They will never have that “what if” feeling…I would just tell the mom “Only 5% get in and the other 95% are very qualified but you never know.”
Right now I am watching my friend’s kid get very excited about applying ED to Stevens Institute where he is at the 25% percentile…i just said make sure you have safeties and match’s picked out and prepare the applications to those while you are waiting for results.
I have given the “Good for him/her - aim high” and tried to be supportive, especially when the parent is so enthusiastic about the process, and then steered it to how I remember how stressful the application/waiting/rejection stage was for us as parents- and my pups didn’t come to me and DH for advice because even though we all knew they were so much smarter than we are - we just didn’t let them say that out loud…
I have to wonder when a first gen student with no significant EC’s, superscored 1340 SAT after 4 attempts, almost all B/B+ with a few A’s in language and gym, thinks she has a legit shot at applying to all of Ivies because her Aunt Epsy went to Cornell 30 years ago, after applying to all the Ivies. This is a nice kid, but I think she is throwing away her application fees. She has included Directional State as her safety and I think she will end up there, but there are so many other really good schools that she might prosper at, they might be a better fit for her.
One of my kids attends her super reach school. Looking at strict numbers, she had absolutely no chance. She did apply to a wide range of schools, including a couple schools which accepted her before the RD app deadlines.
I like the OP’s response. “It’s so competitive but you just never know.” The mother knows that acceptance is unlikely, and her son is applying to a variety of schools. As my D shows, you really do never know.
It’s even worse for ORM’s because they can’t do anything about their last name or skin color.
Unfortunately elite college admission hides behind a “holistic” non-transparent/opaque approach. I might say, “It’s super competitive…it ain’t what it used to be…and yeh although you never know and its worth reaching…there’s a whole new set of factors, and only one thing is for sure…you can’t blame the student if s/he’s done everything possible to do their best and highlight what makes them a good contributor to the community, all’s not fair in love, war and elite college admissions.” In the end, we got to get the word out more to new parents to the process, that don’t blame the student, if they don’t get it. They have often done “everything right,” and someone else looks more appealing to the college for a whole variety of reasons, not least of which includes URM, recruited athlete, legacy or first gen.
Prepped Parent- it must be nice to long for the good old days when the headmaster of Groton called the admissions director at Yale and told him who he’d be taking from their senior class.
“Doing everything right” back in the day meant being male, white, and privileged. (not for nothing did Harvard institutionalize the “Gentleman’s C” to make sure that the dumb guys didn’t flunk out, but ended up with a respectable GPA to get themselves a nice job at daddy’s firm).
Read your post and pretend you are a first generation college student with a perfect GPA, multiple 5’s on AP exams, perfect SAT scores and a laundry list of EC’s despite the fact that you are also responsible for taking care of younger siblings while your single parent works a minimum wage job. Does THAT kid long for the day when the white kid who did “everything right” (mostly winning the genetic lottery and having wealthy parents) sailed into HYP while he ended up commuting to his local state teacher’s college?
You might want to edit your post while you still have time.
No, no need to edit. I’m not talking about white students of privilege. I am talking about ORM’s. But anyway–I think my message is still worth spreading. Students who work hard and get perfect GPA and top scores, and have meaningful ECs and take care of younger sibs, no matter what their race, should not be blamed for not getting an acceptance to Stanford, when so many other factors are relevant other than achievement.
Oh, where do I go not to edit, but to “dis-like” a post? I like difference of opinion and healthy debate, but don’t want to be on the receiving end of anyone’s anger. I’m just a messenger. I don’t make college admission decisions. I’m just trying to help kids and families who are disappointed after all their hard work and don’t understand the rationale behind the rejection, when yes, they have done “everything right,” which has nothing to do with Groton.
My nice white boy with what most would consider pretty ordinary ECs, SAT math and CR scores that were 100 points apart, and a B+ to A- average depending on what courses you considered academic, got into reaches few would have predicted. He had (I believe) top-notch recommendations from his teachers (he’s the sort who thinks well on his feet and participates in discussions), he wrote unusual research papers, and he managed to be funny and engaging in his essays. I’m quite sure that many people would have looked at his stats and said no way he’d get into the schools he did. (He did not get into the school where he was a double legacy BTW.) He did have a safety he really liked and would have very happy to attend.
I’ll never tell someone they have no chance at their reach colleges - but (especially for a first kid), I will say something along the lines of “Things are so competitive these days, have you got a back up plan?”
There is no such thing as “everything right” but your head nod to race is a factor can’t be ignored.
Do we console someone whose HS sweetheart breaks up with them to go out with someone else that they’ve done “everything right”? Do you tell Merrick Garland who didn’t get confirmed to the Supreme Court that he did “everything right”? Do you want to explain to the person nominated for an Emmy but who lost out to someone else that he did “everything right”?
There is no such thing. College admissions- like every other competitive endeavor besides track and field or similar is subjective. Umpires make calls which fans disagree with. Members of the Academy vote for which performance they thought was “more worthy”. It stinks but that’s life. And cultivating a “you did everything right” mentality is a terrible message to a high school kid. Presumably, the kid took calculus instead of “topics in statistics” because he or she wanted to challenge him/herself, NOT because acing calculus is a guarantee of anything- other than learning calculus which presumably has some value.
Any HS kid who believes that a high score and high GPA is going to push them into the admit pile at a college with single digit acceptances has been asleep since 1962 (when they weren’t even alive).
You can mince words, but the point is that students who are top students and still don’t get admitted to elite universities shouldn’t be blamed for it, and that’s my main message.
Who on earth blames a kid for not getting admitted anywhere? If a kid doesn’t get a learner’s permit it’s because he/she didn’t read the manual published by the DMV. Nobody in America thinks that college admissions works that way.