Sysphean Task

Parents Forum
1

Nibling (gender neutral term for niece or nephew)

My nibling asked my daughter who was graduating how much debt she had accrued (none) then asked how in the world was she able to afford college all by herself when it’s so expensive. She explained she didn’t pay for college all by herself - like most kids she cobbled together the money from lots of places - scholarships, money she earned from internships and her parents. That’s when we learned my nibling’s parents had told her they were not paying anything for her college and she was on her own to figure it out.

“That can’t be right, you must have misunderstood.” I remember telling her, I told her I’d talk to her mom about it. My parents paid for all of their children’s higher education. My sibling benefited from 5 years of tuition, rent, food, gas, car, spending money, etc. paid for almost exclusively by my parents (at the beginning of the fifth year they told her this is the last year, get a degree or pay for the 6th on your own) she never completed her degree. Every time I got a check or the tuition bill came my mom would say something along the lines of how my grandparents had paid for her education and wasn’t I lucky because that put her in a position to pay for mine, blah blah. Anyway, it was made very clear, we came from a family that pays for our children’s education and this was an investment not just for me but for any future children who I should also do my best to provide opportunities for a good education. So as soon as my kids were born we started saving for college because I knew that was what was expected of me.

Certainly, I know college costs have soared and it’s not within everyone’s means to help pay for college and sometimes the EFC’s simply can’t be met by the family for one reason or another. My nibling also has several (5+) siblings so I know telling each kid, you’re going to college and we’ll pay for it, would be irresponsible. But there is a lot of discretionary money (vacations, fancy cars, huge home, talk of buying vacation house etc) so what I would consider signs of some financial room to help out a bit. So I asked my sister if she’d given her child a budget for college (helps kids get motivated to find and apply for scholarships and helps them figure out what schools are doable, etc) and was astonished to hear the only help she planned to provide was room and board, in her home. It’s a big home with lots of babysitting and household duties for my nibling, not exactly the best setting to take on the challenge of college and not the expected family contribution I thought would be made available to my nibling.

Shock, followed by recounting of above to my parents (almost 50, still ratting out my sibling). My parent had same reaction I had, disbelief. Can’t be right, will ask about it, etc. Phone call back a week or so later, nibling could count on $0 from her parents, don’t understand, must be something going on, maybe they’re having financial struggle and can’t, though my sibling and her husband (who was awarded a full ride to college but flunked out) were of the opinion the kid will only appreciate their education if they pay for it themselves.

Whatever, it’s their money. Now it’s time to come up with a game plan. My nibling was becoming despondent, her friends are applying for colleges and she is reaching out for advice. I find college confidential to figure out what do rich kids do when parents refuse to pay - military or NMS. Nibling can’t do either, suffered an injury and can’t even do PE, so no hope of passing a physical. Also had TBI (traumatic brain injury) in accident, is lucky to see, understand, read, speak and be alive. Qualifier dates for NMS have passed, and she is still rebounding cognitively ACT 21.

At this point I’m getting despondent. Hubby asks what’s bothering me, why I look so worried lately. Tell him all of the above. My husband was awarded a full ride and finished his degree (that actually makes him appreciate it more, after all what a gift) but he was from a poor family (raised by single mom, welfare baby so tons of financial need). Husband not surprised nibling’s family won’t be helping child with college, says it sounds like them. Tells me not to worry, easy fix -
he’ll pay for nibling to go to college. I look up OOS tuition at our local community college (approx $10k), review rewards balance of a 529 (approx $5k), move additional $5k cash into a separate bank account. Let nibling know there is $10k set aside which would cover first year here (the backup plan) or available if something else comes together. We can figure the rest out together like we did/are doing for our other kids.

Getting parent to file FAFSA may not be possible. Unable to get parent to advocate for testing accommodation. Did get parent to take child on college visit (hoping that would change stance on financial support, encourage involvement in college application process).

Feeling extra frustrated since nibling’s family keeps attempting to make extended family travel plans (a cruise for my family while I’m trying to help pay for my kid in school and the full sticker price for hers doesn’t sound fun).

I really don’t want advice on how to cajole nibling’s family into financial support or even filing the FAFSA (I’ve assigned that sysphean task to my dad, he’s the only one with any shred of influence, has already tried, but will continue to try to change her mind, and I know he will continue the conversation at times when she is most amenable, my folks are on a good pension and didn’t save extra so they aren’t in a position to help because pension just covers their expenses).

…

2

A few thoughts:

  1. With a 21 ACT and what sounds like a relatively recent injury, how confident are you that this niece/nephew really should be going to college at this point? Perhaps living at home and combining some sort of job and a few college classes at a local community college might be a good path, at least for a year or so?

  2. Why OOS at your local community college? Does he/she live in a different state from you? If his/her parents are willing to have the child live at home and do community college, why would it be OOS versus in-state?

  3. There may be options to get community college tuition for free or nearly so, with perhaps a higher possibility of this if he/she stays local to current location.

  4. The niece/nephew should be consulting his/her school’s college/career counselor (presuming the school has one, as is likely). The counselor will have a fuller understanding of options available, and may also be able to provide more general “counseling” to the parents to perhaps help them get on board more.

3

Ouch! Your poor nibling! I understand your frustration with your sibling and applaud your husband for wanting to help. I have no suggestions on how to do it, but it sounds like a difficult line to walk.

4

Is it at all possible that the parents see something in this situation you are missing? Maybe they don’t think your nibling is healthy enough for moving away to school and functioning 100% independently? Or combined current academic strength and health makes them unwilling to pay to send her away to school? Are they seeing huge academic struggles right now? Are they seeing hurdles as limiting her options?

5

Do you know your nibling’s gpa?
A 21 ACT is above average in the-real-world-outside-cc, and may garner some scholarships at your cc (or a cc she can commute to - investigate cc’s within commutable distance).
If your niece moves to your house senior year and graduates HS from a HS in your state, would the cc consider her instate (some colleges consider that graduating from a HS instate automatically qualifies you for instate tuition regardless of parent status but it depends on state and cc’s)?
Would your sibling agree on temporary guardianship for your nibling or is that a nonstarter? (It’d help with getting accommodation for her, not with tuition, so not sure it’s worth looking into).
Would your nibling’s be amenable to taking act prep classes if her school or public library offers those? Is she registered for the September ACT? If not, can she register?
Even if Khan academy is for the SAT, many questions test the same content and she could practice on her computer or phone in order to increase that score.

It sounds as if your sibling has concluded from her own experience (yours notwithstanding) that the reason she wasn’t motivated enough to finish her degree is that she didn’t have to pay for it…and is making her child pay for that youthful mistake.
A big difference is that what was possible in our generation isn’t anymore - college costs have increased to a point that a child who is not helped by parents can’t go to college anymore - is she expecting her child to go to college at all? Or does she expect the child to find a minimum wage job somewhere and live at home till S/he gets married (or pregnant)?

It is my understanding that your nibling, if living at home, will have to dedicate time to babysitting and other work/jobs/tasks (taking care of animals, maybe), that are time consuming.

If your nibling stayed at home, how much would the local college cost? How disruptive would the tasks be - and can you discern whether your sibling’s goal is to keep nibling from doing well in college so as to not “prove themselves better than their mother and leave then behind” (a fear your sister may have) or are genuinely useful to the family and won’t be abused?

What does your sister expect to do with her other kids -same deal, they can stay at home but must work there and commute and figure out how to pay tuition themsekves, or is your nibling’s a special case - and if so, why? (Health, precedent, bad behavior, control on sexual life/orientation, gender they feel requires extra supervision…?)

6

@MWDadOf3

  1. Injury was 3 years ago. Reading/writing was actually pretty good and math so abysmal that state standards for hs graduation were not met through ACT. Is in hs math prep program now for tutoring in hopes a standard diploma can be granted. Additional followup treatment for injury ceased over a year ago when family failed to establish followup team in new state after move. Nibling has difficulty saving at home (required to chip in for various household expenses) and the chores and babysitting of younger siblings currently leaves very little time for study after the part time job needed to meet obligations.
  2. I'm pretty familiar with my local CC. ACT score will get admission there. Three of my kids have taken classes there, the youngest age 14 when started. It works with local hs and is the main provider of dual credit courses to the county. These CC instructors are used to getting college level material (which transfers seamlessly into the flagship university general education requirements) into hs heads and developing college level skills. My kids also tutor so there would be a lot of additional academic support within this household. Yes, current hs is OOS where the parents reside and my CC will consider student OOS because of that. There is also very affordable student housing, so something attainable to work toward.
  3. If only they hadn't moved CC would have been free in last state they resided, but current state where now enrolled in hs is only about $50 cheaper per credit hour than OOS here.
  4. There are a few minutes of free time at the end of a computer class which student uses to apply to all colleges that send mail to house (I forgot to mention no internet access from home other than mobile data plans). I asked if the school was waiving fees and answer was no, so I think student is paying these with their own debit card. Student was very proud to be able to apply to schools, and since it is helping to cast a wider net and making college more real, I figured that feeling alone must be worth the application fees. Student applied at our CC and we paid application fee at last visit. Student just joined hs last year (over 2,000 students at current high school) there is one 12th grade counselor that posts college bound information like test date registration deadlines, which college representatives are in town and where they are (the Hilton, County Library etc) on the school website but I haven't seen any parent workshops or anything run by the school itself. Our city school hosts workshops, has the college representatives booked at the school, has counselors that book appointments with students to create a plan for each one. Unfortunately none of that is available at the current hs being attended.

@Mom2aphysicsgeek

I think there is something I am missing, I am particularly worried about student’s medical insurance. The state of adoption where student had been ward of the state currently covers the student (I don’t know if that will end at emancipation, when student moves out of household, or will be continued as long as an enrolled student.) Looking at Starbuck’s for employment for eligibility of health insurance if needed since CC doesn’t offer health plan for students. Since the move out of state, a new team wasn’t ever established near current residence for followup treatment.

If you met student for first time I think you’d think pretty average (drives, part time job, passes classes, participates in band). Definitely apathetic compared to prior to the accident, but this may not be something that will ever change and is pretty common with TBI.

Very few 18 year olds are capable of functioning 100% independently (but if you meant is an assisted living arrangement necessary, no), that’s why dorms have RA’s and campuses have dining halls. Student has an incredible social quotient/emotional intelligence which remains intact and is probably better prepared from life experiences than the vast majority that age.

The not paying isn’t about this student in particular it’s just how they’ve chosen to spend their money. No one realized they weren’t helping the kids before, “we bought soandso their first car for their birthday” isn’t how I would phrase a structured loan for soandso - I’d say “soandso bought their first car” or “we loaned soandso money so they could buy their first car” if I had only been the lender.

Good News:

Realized I already know the Dean of Student (& Disability) Services at CC. New item on to do list: Introduce student to Dean, probably would be able to help us figure out quite a few things.

An extended family DINK said to reach out if student needed anything because wanted to help too and also offered housing in an expensive metropolis with plenty of opportunities for summer employment near some great universities. Apparently, student has been receiving similar offers from others as well- “There are a lot of places I’m welcome.”

Finally feeling like it will all work out.

7

OP- you and all the other family members/friends sound incredible. Kudos and hugs to all of you.

One quick suggestion- perhaps shift your focus solely away from “how to get this kid to college (and pay for it)” and more towards “How to help this kid launch into adulthood”.

Seems like a lot more issues (unaddressed LD’s, residual medical issues, perhaps need for OT? Psych counseling?) than just college and who pays what. End of the day- if the kid is 24 when she gets a BA (or doesn’t get a BA- gets an AA in something that allows her to earn a living that she’s interested in) is that a bad outcome? I know a young single mom who is self-supporting with a great job in the phlebotomy department of a huge academic medical center. She’s been promoted once- is on track for another- has an AA from a Community College which does a solid job in Allied Health fields and has numerous continuing ed programs (which the hospitals in the region pay for their employees to attend). Great, outgoing personality and a lot of social/emotional intelligence like your nibling-- not really an academic brain from what I can tell.

So perhaps focusing on the long term outcome could help vs. just college??? I would hate to think that unaddressed medical or psychological issues could end up derailing your very fine and well meaning college financing plans.

8

Are you saying that you nibling was a ward of the state? If so, does that not mean the student is automatically an independent for FA?

It is a very confusing situation. Not many UMC households expect an injured teen to work to contribute to household expenses.???

By functioning independently, I meant managing their own health and managing their schedule without monitoring.

9

Please read questions 46 through 58 of the FAFSA carefully to see if this student qualifies as independent -
https://ifap.ed.gov/eannouncements/attachments/20172018FreeApplicationforFederalStudentAid(FAFSA)(EN).pdf

The question of getting state health insurance should be answerable by calling the state directly. You shouldn’t have to give names or anything.

ETA: Link somewhat broken, but if you copy the whole thing to the end it should work

10

There is mention that the parents don’t think the child is ready…that is one thought of the situation. Another thought is that the parents are toxic/have a personality disorder and are scapegoating the child… - Singling out one child, employee or member of a group of peers for unmerited negative treatment or blame. They may want the child to continue to contribute to the household and to do chores for them. Paying for college would 1) take money from them
2) Allow the child indepedence 3) Take away the work and $ the child is giving.

If you think this is at all the case then do everything you can do get the adult child away from the parents.

If you support the nibling, be wary of your sibling…make sure they don’t have access to the money and make sure you pay any bills directly.

Another option is joining the armed forces…they will be independent because of that and also financially.

Discussion board on toxic parents: http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?board=4.0

11

A few thoughts…

Are you also willing/able to help your other 5 niblings from this family finance college? I think that is something to consider since she is the oldest. What are you going to do if the others come to you expecting help?

Also, if you spend the $10,000 you have set aside for her freshman year, do you have a plan for how to pay for the remaining 3 years?

Is it possible that your nibling’s parents don’t think people value college when they haven’t paid for it because neither of them valued their paid for education? This is not the first I’ve heard of that line of reasoning. I don’t agree with it, but it is not a new idea.

Is it possible the parents don’t value higher ed at all? We have family members who don’t value it and who actually discourage their children from attending college.

Is it possible that your nibling’s parents aren’t offering money for college because they may not be able to provide it for the other 5 children they have and they don’t want to be unfair? Even just the $10,000 per year you’ve provided x 4 years x 6 kids is $240,000, which is quite a bit of money.

We have 7 children and while we are planning to help them fund college, we are being careful to make sure we don’t do more for our oldest than we will be able to do for our other kids. We’re being very up front with him about how much we can help.

Is it possible your nibling’s parents are financially irresponsible and don’t have the money? A big house, fancy cars and exotic vacations sometimes indicate a lot of debt.

Also, isn’t it a given that some parents (not me) do not believe they are under any obligation to pay for their children to go to college? Typically, when kids come on CC to say their parents won’t help with college, they are advised to live at home and go to CC. I am wondering what it is about this scenario that is so different from others.

It is nice that your nibling has family members and friends that care so much about her. She sounds like a great kid and it’s good that you’re helping her. I hope she comes up with a good plan for her future and gets all the help she needs along the way.

12

I wonder if it might be helpful to your nibbling if you help her negotiate a change in household duties if she lives at home while attending school. A good friend once told me that she reduced her children’s household responsibilities as they got older so they could focus on their own lives and careers. We are trying to do the same with our oldest children. Since she has some academic difficulties, living at home might be a good option for her if she can reach an agreement with her parents about reduced household/babysitting duties.

13

^ it sounds like the parents expect their concussed kid to work and give them the salary “to contribute to household” AND do things at home that leave little time for HW. If nibling moved to OPs house at least they will be able to keep their salary and will have time for HW.

14

If that’s true, then the student might be better off in another environment. Without more details, it is hard to know whether the parents are expecting the student to pay for her own gas, contribute to the cell phone plan, and wash dishes a couple of nights a week OR pay the light bill/water bill and provide free after school care and nightly dinners for her siblings.

15

@MYOS1634 I hadn’t really thought ahead to how an improved ACT might impact options at transfer time. Will try to get to take again.

@jazzymomof7 Although there are 5 in household now, there are actually older as well. Age at adoption for nibling prevents ability to be considered independent on FAFSA like some, their hs graduations took place in states with free community college, etc. All other siblings older and younger have no physical conditions that would prevent enlistment. I have offered room and board (no rent, their own room, free food, use of vehicle) to older ones especially since they have so many ties to this area with families and friends. Some have come and stayed a bit or borrowed cars when they need to. Some have applied and been accepted to nearby institutions but with OOS fees for them here better options existed elsewhere.

Nibling’s new state has expensive in state options, no free CC, and has shown a genuine interest in attending college. Home life is such I’m not very comfortable success can be achieved from there.

We’ve talked this decision over with our kids and they are willing to help us make it work. We think we saved enough for our younger ones to cover their EFC, and they’ve each managed to save quite a bit (oldest graduated college with more money than started with thanks to co-ops). Even we ended up with a bit leftover from oldest (would like to try to hold on for oldest’s future children) but it would cover second year community college if we can’t figure anything else out.

It’s really hard to tell overall because nibling and our middle are in same grade, and middle may be able to get some good merit aid which would really stretch current college budget. Can we? yes Will it affect our financial plans? yes. Will we be booking cruises? no Does this push out retirement? probably Could something happen and circumstances change and we become unable to help? yes. Nibling is very concerned with all these questions. We are being very careful not to over promise.

I think it is so important to be upfront with kids about budgets. It keeps them motivated and helps them figure out what their options are. We are waiting to see how first year pans out since we’ve set aside those funds already.

Could pay for next three years tuition by skipping a year or two of retirement contributions, but will probably just find ways to budget to cover.

One way to really stretch that we learned with oldest was timing of co-ops so there was only one semester per calendar year. Start Fall Semester, Co-Op Spring, Summer Semester, Co-Op Fall, Spring Semester, Co-Op Summer, Co-Op Fall, Spring Semester graduate (first 2 yrs are at CC + 3 additional years to complete at university, but includes full year of co-op experience).

We believe tuition is doable if we can find the right university.

16

May not be a good idea unless the nibling is actually interested in US military service. Also, there are many medical issues that will make someone ineligible for US military service (see http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/disqualifiers-medical-conditions.html ).

17

You mentioned working at Starbucks for medical insurance. They also have an educational plan to get a degree through ASU. Friend of D’s is doing that currently.

18

Any update?

19

Dare I ask if the kid’s nibling, rather than niece or nephew, status has anything to do with this? I’m inferring that this person is transgender, and maybe the parents have problems with that and/or are scapegoating the kid because of this? If this is the case, and I sincerely hope it is not, this kid has far bigger problems than paying for education. Parents who don’t provide emotional support for their kids in this situation are toxic. I hope your nibling can get out of this unhealthy home as soon as possible.

20

Checked in with older niblings, found that none of them are actually self-supporting. They are all, however, in safe environments with people who can financially support them by providing a roof over their heads, feed them and provide emotional support. I think that situation is actually very much helping nibling (not trans, just trying not to be too specific since info is so personal) to see it really is not feasible to return to state of older siblings until some education and work experience has been secured. Re-invited older siblings here if they needed, said if anything changed with living situations to call immediately and we’d help them work something out. I think one may be considering moving in the Spring, if so that would really help nibling settle in as well since really wants to reunite with siblings, we just can’t afford to set up an entire other household across the country and support them all.

Nibling turns 18 soon and has threatened to run away in past, but with college to look forward to and emancipation in spring (I really keep emphasizing the hs diploma is important to emancipate as dictated by current state) I think at this point nibling is concentrating on getting into school as best as possible to improve grades, pass state standards, and feels pretty good having a plan. Seemed in very good spirits last visit and becoming more comfortable with our offer of support. I think talk of specific budgets, submissions of applications, etc make it all real.

As we’ve mentioned before working only is ok, too but we’d really like to see enrollment and if it’s our money being invested school has to come first (part time ok (<15), but not full time while taking a full class load - or only one class and fulltime (30 hrs) NIbling has a financial goal in mind to save before they start school, which is doable by Fall with a standard summer job, so at this point it is all wait and see.

Nibling was worried about transportation (doesn’t have a car) but our S won’t need his in Fall and it is really nice and dependable, mine is usually in the driveway, hubby replaced his, so we actually have a spare now (it’s a real junker, with a great engine which is perfect for a young man on campus who will be able to park it and forget it without worry.) Didn’t mention that in front of nibling’s mom since she’s mentioned before how she wouldn’t allow my parents to give a car to nibling.

Have warned nibling not to rack up debt on the parent ledger (siblings all got into debt with them and its been very emotionally draining on them) and is heeding that advice as far as we know. I am still very upset that some nice graduation checks literally ran through the fingers of my niblings to parents - I know that knowledge has upset some extended family as well since we all thought we were providing them with nice little nest eggs to get started with - but I would not be surprised if nibling can hit financial goal by end of June with a graduation dinner with a couple supportive extended family members once settled outside of current household.

I think getting money into the bank will help with having a sense of control and freedom, but it will also help with setting plans up for the future. It’s easy to think you can make ends meet when you don’t have any idea what things actually cost, all the bills that come along in life and how few months that savings goal would actually support.

Right now it’s wait and see.