Taking both AP physics C courses simultaneously?

Parents Forum
1

<p>DS14 is currently taking AP Physics B and loves it. He wants to major in physics in college, and is currently choosing courses for his senior year. He has space in his schedule to take both of the Physics C courses (electricity and magnetism, and mechanics). He would be taking AP Calculus BC concurrently, which should cover the math portion, per the curriculum guide.</p>

<p>Is it reasonable to take both of the Physics C courses at the same time? Or should he choose just one of them? He is strong in the STEM subjects, but with doing college apps next fall, we don’t want a burnout schedule either. </p>

<p>His other courses would be CP English, CP History, and PE.</p>

<p>Another option would be AP Statistics in place of one of the physics courses, though he is less excited about that option.</p>

<p>Any thoughts?</p>

2

<p>There does not seem to be any conceptual reason not to do both. What will his math background be by that time?</p>

3

<p>The two parts of physics C are nominally supposed to be equivalent to two semesters of introductory physics at a university. Do you mean to say that each is a year long course in high school?</p>

<p>In practice, many colleges do not consider physics C to be fully equivalent to their own introductory physics courses, probably due to the lesser use of math*, particularly in E&M. Among the UCs, Berkeley, Los Angeles, Santa Barbara, and Santa Cruz (at least) do not allow physics majors to skip the introductory physics courses with physics C. On the other hand, students with physics C may be well prepared to take the honors introductory physics courses, if available.</p>

<ul>
<li>In particular, E&M courses often list multivariable calculus as a co-requisite.</li>
</ul>

4

<p>Note that a good score on calculus BC usually is accepted for skipping some freshman calculus courses, although it would be a good idea for the student to review the college’s final exams in the courses that may be skipped to check knowledge of what the college’s courses expect one to know upon completion.</p>

5

<p>If he has already taken B then taking both Mech and E/M should be doable. You do not need Multi for E/M., but it won’t hurt.</p>

6

<p>@sylvan8798, he is currently taking math analysis/calculus honors, and will do Calc B/C next year.</p>

<p>@ucbalumnus, yes, each is a year-long course at his high school. </p>

<p>We need to think through the purpose, I guess, of doing both. Our initial thought is that he loves it and there is room in his schedule. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>This brings up a concern for me. By taking these courses, would he be setting himself up to THINK he knows the subject to university standards, while missing something foundational? (I have a lot of faith in his physics teacher but am aware that different schools might emphasize different things.) Yet, if he repeated a course when he got to college, would he be frustrated/bored? </p>

<p>So, after thought, I guess my question now has several parts:</p>

<p>1) Would the workload of taking both be too much? (Answer I’m hearing - maybe not but the lack of multivariable calculus might be a problem in E/M. If he takes only one, it should be mechanics, and we probably want to talk to the teacher about E/M)</p>

<p>2) Is there any potential downside to taking them, in terms of either causing him to have potential holes in his knowledge if he skips a university class, or in causing him boredom if he retakes the class in college in order to not have holes? </p>

<p>3) I guess question #2 would apply to any course taken at high school level which is a building block for future courses. Maybe your suggestion, ucbalumnus, of looking at the school’s final exams is the way around this. But how would a student even have access to the final exams, particularly when choosing courses as an incoming freshman?</p>

7

<p>

</p>

<p>Well, in the case of calculus, that is what reviewing the college’s old final exams can help with.</p>

<p>In the case of physics, given that he is unlikely to be allowed to skip the introductory physics courses, he may want to choose the honors versions if available. (If he is allowed to skip with AP credit, see the previous paragraph about checking the old final exams from the college.)</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Search the college’s web site for “[course number] final exam”. Or look on the department web sites. Example for Berkeley:</p>

<p>[Exams</a> | Department of Mathematics at University of California Berkeley](<a href=“http://math.berkeley.edu/courses/archives/exams]Exams”>Exams | Department of Mathematics)
<a href=“https://tbp.berkeley.edu/students/exams/[/url]”>https://tbp.berkeley.edu/students/exams/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>As far as gaps go, if the gaps are small, the student can also consider the option of skipping as allowed, but self-studying the gaps. This is actually suggested by the Berkeley math department for those who get a 5 on BC and want to skip both Math 1A and 1B (there is some material in Math 1B that is not included in many other college or high school calculus courses):</p>

<p><a href=“http://math.berkeley.edu/courses/choosing/ap-exams[/url]”>http://math.berkeley.edu/courses/choosing/ap-exams&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

8

<p>Thank you, ucbalumnus. I’d never even considered the possibility of finding the exams online. </p>

<p>I’ll talk all of this over with DS. Thank you for the input!</p>

9

<p>He could definitely take both. Multivariable calculus is not at all necessary for the E and M section, the math requirement is AB calculus as a corequisite. This is designed as a high school class, veryyyyy few kids will have had MV calc. I am taking Physics C this year, and my school does both parts as 1 full year course, which is completely doable.</p>

<p>Also, MIT thinks Physics C is adequate to skip 1-2 semesters of intro physics.</p>

10

<p>To answer your question, I believe you can take the courses simulataneously without problem. And since you have to take something, why not, especially if you are interested in that as a major. I wish I had such an opportunity in high school.</p>

<p>But, IMO as a non-genius with a physics degree, I would be very careful skipping directly into upper division Mechanics or E&M in college based solely on an AP Physics C class. Regardless of what the school will allow. I think you should find earning a “5” on both parts of that AP exam basically trivial before you would consider skipping that much physics, I found going from freshman Physics to UD physics basically a quantum leap (pardon the pun).</p>

<p>If you are good enough to get into MIT you may have a better chance with skipping. But in general I think people should be cautious skipping intro stuff in their major. I think ucb’s advice about checking out the exams is good before making your decision. Also, you want to look at your freshman schedule as a whole. For you, do you think a schedule of UD E&M and Mech, Freshman quantum mechanics, probably a chemistry class and some sort of math, plus some distribution requirment is how you want to transition into college?</p>

<p>For some the answer will be a resounding yes - that sounds like heaven. For others, there might be more trepidation. Of course, that’s a decision for later.</p>

11

<p>What is the school policy on dropping classes? I ask this because if he finds that the course load is too heavy and could impact his GPA, it might not be worth the risk depending on the schools to which he will apply. Does he have any schools on his radar yet? If so, contact the physics chair at those schools and run the options by him. It not only gives you a good idea of what a college prof thinks, it also give him a connection at his dream school :D. If he can handle those 3 classes and maintain his GPA, I would take them but take them assuming he is going to repeat them in college–which is a good thing for his college GPA given he will most likely be going on to grad school.</p>

12

<p>

Taking honors versions once in college is probably one of the best routes if they are available. As a physics major, E + M is typically 3 semesters undergrad, and 1 or 2 semesters grad, so there is plenty of material there.</p>

13

<p>My son took both AP Physics mechanics and E & M simultaneously in 11th grade and did not have a problem. However, he did have to know some of mechanics for E & M, so was having to play catch up to some extent in the early part of the course.</p>

<p>Physics and math came VERY easily to him, so it was not problem. However, I would not recommend it to someone who did not have a natural and easy grasp of the subject matter. He took it for “fun” and because he wanted something stimulating and interesting. It was not a strategic or “career” move. He’s not even majoring in physics in college. It was something he enjoyed - otherwise, he wouldn’t have bothered with it.</p>

14

<p>

</p>

<p>That should make some think. Some high schools do not offer either AP Physics Cs and some kids can self-study and get 5s if they take Cal BC concurrently or took it previously. At college, skipping it or retaking it may not be an easy decision. Dartmouth won’t allow any AP credits starting 2018 perhaps because 4s or 5s have little value. OP’s son should handle it okey if he’s a math/physics kid.</p>

15

<p>My son took both in his junior year of HS, and got a 4 and a 5 on the tests. He took both while taking other AP classes and was fine. Unlike other areas where he had AP credit, he didn’t feel prepared for a more advanced physics class in college, and wound up dropping it after having some medical issues and missing a couple of classes. (he thought he could take quantum physics as a first semester freshman… I tried to tell him not to, but I’m just a parent…). Fortunately he did realize it wasn’t a good idea early enough to not get a W.</p>

16

<p>

</p>

<p>SteveMA, what a wonderful idea!! We will do that as yes, we do have a couple of schools on the radar. </p>

<p>I appreciate everyone’s input. Thank you so much. I love the collective wisdom of cc.</p>

17

<p>I second bovertine’s advice. I think it would be possible for your son to take both at once and to score 5’s on the AP exams.</p>

<p>However, the introductory E&M course for scientists and engineers genuinely requires multi-variable calculus if it is a “real” course. There are relations from vector calculus that are used all the time in E&M. I have now seen generations of students taking E&M with and without vector calculus beforehand. I recommend very strongly for everyone that they take multi-variable calculus first, and not concurrently. </p>

<p>On the one hand, it is entirely true that one can take multi-variable calculus and E&M concurrently and make an A in both (although it is somewhat less likely than if they were taken sequentially). On the other hand, your son will understand E&M differently if he has already had vector calculus.</p>

<p>As a physicist, one is trying to obtain real understanding, as opposed to learning “this is how you do it.” Hence my recommendation.</p>

18

<p>Thank you to everyone who has commented. </p>

<p>QuantMech, it sounds like you have a lot of experience in this arena, and I take your advice very seriously. DS’s goal is a quality education first and foremost, rather than high AP test scores or a polished transcript. I will encourage him to take the mechanics class only and leave E&M for later.</p>

19

<p>To be honest, if he’s already taken Physics B the Mechanics part is going to be mostly review.</p>

<p>QuantMech, I don’t really understand why it’s a bad thing to be introduced to the concepts behind E&M without necessarily knowing how to calculate all the integrals. Thousands of kids every year take Physics C and only a tiny, tiny fraction will have had MV calc. Are you arguing that it’s a useless class in general?</p>

20

<p>

I won’t answer for QM but I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. I think these conceptual explanations can be helpful as a launching platform and certainly superior to memorization. I assume they at least give an intro to the divergence, gradient and curl when they hit Maxwell’s equations. Or do you learn that before MVC? I can’t remember.</p>

<p>The issue I was addressing was not whether he should take the class in high school. I mean, he’s going to take something, so why not. I was merely positing that for a physics major I would just approach skipping university freshman E&M with caution, regardless of my AP score. I know where I went to school MVC was a prerequisite for the E&M portion of the “Freshman Physics for Physics Majors” course. </p>

<p>Learning how to work out those fields for various objects and circumstances was some of the hardest stuff I’ve ever done, but probably some of the most valuable. It wasn’t so much solving the integrals per se as setting them up. It was good mental exercise for me, which I’m certain I couldn’t repeat now.</p>

<p>I’m not sure QM would agree with all of this or not. She’s pretty brainy, and a professor, so I would certainly defer to her on this one in the event we disagree on something here. Same thing goes for sylvan.</p>