Can you talk when you encounter a large spider unexpectedly? I know I can’t even scream at first, and when I can speak, it is pretty focused on something about the spider. That is sort of what it is like. I’d call that a physiological reason, even if it is based on what their brain is focusing on at the moment and not actual paralysis of their vocal chords.
I’ve spent time with lots of Aspies of all ages, as well as individuals with panic disorders. Sounds like you are describing a panic response. All I am saying is that there is no physiological link that I am aware of between the ability to communicate and the ability to make eye contact.
Okay. You don’t have to believe it. But my kid, and many other people on the spectrum, will tell you that they find it almost impossible to communicate verbally and maintain eye contact at the same time. I am not sure why you need a string between their brain and their tongue that physically ties it to believe that there is a connection. Are you implying that everyone with that symptom is making it up? Not sure why you don’t believe there is a link.
I am not saying I dont believe it. There are lots of individual differences. Simply saying the neural pathways are different so its hard to understand from a potential physiological perspective… If you find a reference that would be great!
My better conversations with our S have also been in cars where there was no eye contact. In HS particularly, that was the best way to have conversations. He seemed more inclined to talk and share than if we were facing one another and there was eye contact. S has never been diagnosed as “on the autism spectrum,” and CAN be very polite and attentive but socializing requires significant exertion from him and he’s not as good at reading social cues as D (whom he has asked for socail cue help when they traveled together).
A friend calls that “car jail,” HImom, when they’re in hs, there’s something you need to say, and they can’t walk away. I’ve tried it and it worked.
There are a lot of people in tech who are solid at their jobs but not into the social aspects. True, some extremes lack social strengths and some are outright difficult. But So What if they don’t look you in the eye or aren’t into coffee room chatter? Or they don’t answer your nth question or say “Bye!” in the ways that make you feel warm n fuzzy? Really.
These folks aren’t dealing with clients, negotiating big deals or representing the company to the public. I fretted far more about the coworkers who didn’t produce. Unfortunately, many of those had great social skills. We all know them.
As a small office, we do desire some level of community, though. Look - I’m not big into the coffee break chatter. I typically eat lunch at my desk. My coworkers kid that it’s a big occasion if I eat lunch in the break room with them. But I’m able to turn it on because I know it’s what other people want and need. Those who chatter excessively get told that in their perfect reviews And they are expected to work on it. There have been no technical skills I’ve needed where I couldn’t find someone who was still “normal” in terms of social interaction and for whom looking someone in the eye and making 30 seconds of small talk around how your weekend was is problematic.
@jym626 I don’t know if there is any scientific literature on the topic of eye contact. Individuals on the spectrum often report that they can do one or the other, eye contact or listen, but not both.
This may be helpful for the OP
http://www.antiochne.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/ASDEmpGuide.pdf
@jym626 http://www.rdiconnect.com/teaching-social-skills-with-rdi/
- " Marcel Just and his colleagues at Carnegie Melon University propose that autism, one of the most extensively studied of the social communication disorders, is the result of “under-functioning integrative circuitry” (Just, et al., 2004)." *
that is 11 years old. Is there any more current research? I will read this when the link opens, but that simply says this is a theory of autism as problems with “integrative circuitry” . Will have to see what they mean by that. Totally agree that autism is a Social communication disorder. But they are talking about autism in the older definition. I am looking for information about the physiological inability to talk when making eye contact in Aspies.
** that article is a discussion of teaching social communication and the problem ASD folks have with understanding the perspective of others (theory of mind). Problems understanding affect in others is a well known component of ASD.
Social communication and understanding the perspective of another IS part of the physiological wiring of an individual - it is all connected.
Book that may be helpful: http://www.johnrobison.com/more-about-Look-me-in-the-Eye.php
John Elder Robison has a blog. I won’t link it but you can easily find it in an internet search
Stephen Shore is also a good resource
http://www.paulakluth.com/2014/04/03/day-3-beyond-the-wall-personal-experiences-with-autism/
Palomina. We are talking apples and oranges. I will turn to my professional colleagues and journals for the questions I am asking and answers I am seeking. It’s beyond the scope of this discussion. Thanks for your input.
Re: Eating lunch in the break room with coworkers or alone in your own office.
I usually eat lunch with others at company. Also, it seems most people prefer that the topic that is brought up should not be related to work, at least not too much about work. This is especially true when the nature of job of the person you talk to during break is support related, like the IT/computer support. Heck, some IT people won’t be happy if you talk to them without creating a ticket for requesting the service and they prefer that they go to you when it is your turn. That is, you are not supposed to go to them any time because, as one IT person pointed out, doing so is like not waiting in the queue and jumping to the head of the waiting queue ahead of others. This is not fair to those who submit the ticket before you. People learn fast that it is especially important NOT to talk to such support persons about work during the break. You could talk about anything except the work.
Another thing that I want to point out is that, at many work places, some people may intentionally hold some key information or knowledge as their own “secret knowledge”, and choose not to share with others for an apparent reason. They may only share it with their manager (to show off how much they know in order to advance themselves) but they are reluctant to let others know the precious little knowledge they have hard earned.
There is a difference between a person who has a personality problem in communications and a person who intentionally choose to not share (to have an edge over coworkers.) It is the latter case that becomes annoying. Actually, inna more toxic environment, it is usually the latter case that is more common in my past 30 years of work experience.
I have had an experience that when I asked a person about something and he claimed he did not know the answer. Two minutes later, our manager came by and happened to ask him the same question (in front of both of us). He surely knows the answer and explains it in great details very clearly. He even won’t be ashamed of his behavior like this. Very soon, all will know who are like this.
Because this is so common at today’s work place, a person who really has the inter-personal communication issue by his nature has the burden of not misleading others to believe that he intentionally tries to not share the information.
@mcat2 - the flip side is that some tech workers have experienced having their ideas stolen by co-workers who do not give them credit, or have been made redundant once they have shared what they know. I think spectrum people feel especially vulnerable.
I have also been told by people who publicly identify as being “on the spectrum” that eye contact is scary to them, or that when they are trying to have a conversation they not able to concentrate on both making eye contact and keeping their train of thought intact, and that if they are making good eye contact with me they are likely not paying attention to anything I am trying to say to them.
Some would think that any effort to teach or improve eye contact is cruel and unnecessary. I have also met folks who do not publicly or privately identify as being on the spectrum, both within the autism community and outside, who do not make good eye contact (sometimes even worse than those carrying the labels) yet function within their professions.
As a practical matter, when I attempt to read non-verbal communication from anyone, I like to know whether avoiding eye-contact is a deliberate attempt to avoid communication and to snub, a hint that the individual is not being truthful, a cultural norm for the situation, a generational thing, or necessary for an individual to concentrate on other senses or avoid over-stimulation.
After decades of being around autistic people and their families, I am certainly open to the idea that there are many reasons why a person might appear rude because they are not making eye contact or following conversational norms. I can adjust although I will need to forgo some of the non-verbal information that makes normal communication easier. Not everyone is, and I prefer it when they consider the possibility (as is the case with OP) rather than jump to conclusions or (worse) proceed to social exclusion and isolation, or punishment.
And believe it or not, there have been those who considered my non-verbal child’s autistic behaviors such as disordered patterns of eye contact to be “intentional”, even among the educated. Less likely nowadays, though, since there is more public and professional awareness and he is much older.
You may be worrying about this more than you need. Someone close to me used to get nervous when people were nice, too.
But there’s another side; we do sometimes obsess about these others we run into, wondering so much what it is or why. Instead, we can try to accept their different tolerances, find the ways to work together. PG said she can “turn it on because I know it’s what other people want and need.” Most of us can, when needed, personally or professionally.
But, sometimes what we need to do is tone it down, when the other guy can’t turn it up, isn’t built that way. We can make sure we’re not exacerbating.
Apologies, frazzled. I missed that it was you who mentioned a child. I thought it was mcat’s post. I deleted that line.
Yet another fiasco today:
Our boss called a meeting with just two of us, another overseas member and himself to discuss something. (The main purpose of this meeting is for us to convey something to that overseas member so that the overseas member can get started on some joint-project overnight.)
That person decided by himself not to join the meeting. When my boss asked me to tell him to come to the meeting room, I did but he still decided to stay put in his office and did something else he is more interested in doing (discussing something else which is not urgent with another junior member in our group as I found out from that junior member later.) I guess he likely thinks it is more productive for him to do something more interesting than to attend the meeting called by his boss. Not sure what excuse he would use this time when he did not choose to attend the meeting called by the boss. (The meeting room is not far from his cubical. If he was really busy, he could drop by or at least email the boss that he could not attend the meeting easily.) Maybe he expects the boss came to his cubical to drag him to the meeting. Apparently, an electronic meeting invite from the boss is not good enough…Aarrggg!
Oh, boy. If the direct boss can not make him to follow the order and cooperate, how can anyone else make him to do anything unless it happens to be something he prefers to do. I remember that he once said an employee at today’s work place had better be ruthless (to others), he likely really means it, considering that he could disregard the meeting invite from the boss, and ignore a request (to join the meeting) from a coworker who was sent by the boss to fetch him.