<p>coffeenchicory, in asnwer to your question (though I know it is tongue in cheek):</p>
<p>Given all the time off that teachers get, I would say they should start around $60K + benefits in New Jersey, with periodic raises so that by the time they retire they should be making about $120K+benefits. </p>
<p>I am not in favor of absolute “job protection” for ANYONE, not even a Supreme Court Justice (who I think should have term limits, but that is a topic for another thread).</p>
<p>opie, I will agree with you re: the parks and playing fields, a subject near and dear to our family’s hearts. 
All my girls played soccer, starting at age 5. The three who live in Canada still do, including my 26 year old (she’s the teacher). Our soccer club is the largest in North America, with over 12,000 kids playing, and run almost entirely by volunteers. I don’t spend as much time at soccer fields as I used to but still enjoy watching when I get the opportunity. This year the federal government implemented a tax credit of up to $500 for parents who register their children in physical activities. </p>
<p>It’s funny that you say that Canadians smoke more than Americans. That hasn’t been our experience, having lived in both countries. Maybe it’s different in other provinces, but in Ontario, virtually no one smokes anymore. No smoking laws have been in effect here for many years, and we have some of the toughest anti-smoking legislation on the continent. I honestly cannot think of anyone I know who smokes, not a single soul! Maybe it’s Quebec that skews the statistics, I know that many French-Canadians smoke.</p>
<p>Sorry to get off-topic. :)</p>
<p>I am here giving a standing ovation to paying3tuitions. Teaching is THE most stressful career out there. I thank God for my kids’ teachers. Were there duds? Sure. But there were wonderful, dedicated teachers, too. And they were worth double what they were paid. The gamesmanship described by paying3tuitions is right on - and the revolving administrator situation pervasive in most school districts can only lead to a corrupt “merit” reward situation that rewards politicking, not teaching. Good teachers need to teach, but NCLB and a public that resents every penny they make ensures that paperwork and “accountability” has eclipsed all that could be happening if teachers were actually supported.</p>
<p>Babar wrote:
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<p>oh thank you, I forgot that part. Our building had 6 principals in five years. One submitted a tearful resignation in front of the faculty before Thanksgiving. They pulled in some retired principal from the golf course, twice so that he was an interim while they could hire someone midyear. A seasoned principal, actually the only true educator there, resigned in December. So back came the happy golfer! Then a guy came in but he had an affair with a teacher, breaking up his own marriage. He made it to June, a truly seasoned pro, then retired.</p>
<p>For a while, the students thought the janitor was the principal, since he was male, changed light bulbs, and basically improved the school in ways they could fathom.</p>
<p>So please don’t lay heavy on the teachers all the time. We’re not perfect, some of us WHINE a lot, but I think in New Jersey the salary is deserved.</p>
<p>EDIT: My feeling about NCLB is that it refocused some sloppy bad teachers who treated the curriculum as a suggestion, and indulged in teaching their pet topics for weeks, rather than as a half-day or hour of enrichment. For those already teaching hard, teaching for shifts in student learning, observing student progress and individualizing their lessons as much as possible, using their teacherly instincts to call a weak lesson to an early close or stretch something fascinating for another half hour…the NCLB approach is a distraction to teachers who were already very good. Too many teaching days were hijacked for tests. Unrelated, I felt that holiday festivities also hijacked too much teaching time, but I was in the minority on that opinion at my building.</p>
<p>Test results came out in the spring or summer, so couldn’t help that year’s teacher who knew the students. The districts said they gained valuable data from the testing, which might be true, but I wasn’t there long enough to experience any trickle-down to change my teaching. I just had to prepare kids for tests all the time. Maybe someone with a larger lens can see value in it, but I was not impressed.</p>
<p>Our building had 6 principals in five years.</p>
<p>um ya. And yet if the students struggle they arent trying hard enough- some parents find it hard to even keep track of who the principal is.
Interesting that while the district has fewer buildings open than it did 30 years ago ( while the city has grown) and has fewer students, the number of administrators is about the same.
Shouldnt there be more people actually in the schools than in headquarters?</p>
<p>"opie, I will agree with you re: the parks and playing fields, a subject near and dear to our family’s hearts. All my girls played soccer, starting at age 5. The three who live in Canada still do, including my 26 year old (she’s the teacher). Our soccer club is the largest in North America, with over 12,000 kids playing, and run almost entirely by volunteers. I don’t spend as much time at soccer fields as I used to but still enjoy watching when I get the opportunity. This year the federal government implemented a tax credit of up to $500 for parents who register their children in physical activities. "</p>
<p>That is one way to save on future health care costs by implimenting physical activities. It’s a great idea. Never been to Ontario, but the sports parks in Chilliwack, Vancouver BC are top notch. My soccer teams enjoyed tournaments in Chilliwack about 6 summers in a row. Cheap, fun and challenging for us. A nice combination for a soccer tournament. </p>
<p>“It’s funny that you say that Canadians smoke more than Americans. That hasn’t been our experience, having lived in both countries. Maybe it’s different in other provinces, but in Ontario, virtually no one smokes anymore. No smoking laws have been in effect here for many years, and we have some of the toughest anti-smoking legislation on the continent. I honestly cannot think of anyone I know who smokes, not a single soul! Maybe it’s Quebec that skews the statistics, I know that many French-Canadians smoke.”</p>
<p>I love my Canadian relatives, but yes the men and some women have yet to make it to 70. I am usually up anymore for services… last fun was an anaversary party (50th), unfortunately he passed two weeks later unexpectedly, and he was a nonsmoker… </p>
<p>Sorry to get off-topic. </p>
<p>Please don’t be Soccer or Rugby I’m right there… </p>
<p>My S just took up the game in medical school. Scored his first try in his first full game ever on the college club side. Has been playing all over the field…
I look forward to spring break when maybe we’ll fly east to catch a match…</p>
<p>paying3, are you sure I’m not married to you? Your stituation sounds very familar. :)</p>
<p>“It’s a tale often told…”</p>
<p>Opie, of all the teachers I admire the SpecEd teachers, like your wife, most of all. As a substitute teacher early on, I wrongly believed they had it “easier” because there were only 6 SpecEd kids in an elementary classroom, not 30 as for “regular” or mainstream. I soon learned that each of the SPecEd kids needed five times as much thought and teaching attention as the mainstream kids. (6 x 5= 30, so that’s kinda fair after all!) </p>
<p>Special education requires such intelligence and flexibility, obviously, but also humility because you can’t get attached to any teaching method except what works for That Particular Kid. I don’t have the patience to do it, so I deeply admire all who do. Kudos to your spouse!</p>
<p>Now with inclusion approaches, it may be quite different, but (more griping now…) those long meetings wore me out!! The ones where 6 professionals figure out which goals belong in the kid’s Individual Education Plan. They required a mainstream teacher (like me) to sit in on those meetings, which was bizarre because I had never met the child. It was a legal requirement that someone from mainstream be there, to ensure Least Restrictive Environment was happening for the kid. The bad old days of segregating kids into congregated rooms is over, and the more hours they can spend mainstreamed, the better. The concept was that someday the child would hopefully move into the mainstream arena, so my role, ostensibly, was to represent that arena. For me, it was a learning experience to witness the process by which professionals set goals for the children. There was also a community representative, and the parent of course whose consent was needed for anything to go forward. It is a very complex task. No wonder such teachers are in the greatest demand in the elementary teaching world.</p>
<p>What I learned as a mainstream teacher is that, with contemporary teaching methods in small groupings, the presence of special needs learners int he classroom enhances the mainstream kids, despite what many highpowered parents imagine. The SpecEd kids come in WITH their teacher, and are one of perhaps four groups occurring in the classroom. I hope we become a more inclusive society as a result of these new inclusion approaches. That’s the vision, anyway.</p>
<p>Why do I spend time writing about all this? Because the thread began questioning why a teacher deserves $50K. Many educated parents read this, and the more they can understand how complex is the task, the more respect teachers can gain in the community. Some serve on PTA’s, school boards, and more. I realize I’ve not ingratiated myself to any administrators, but so it goes. </p>
<p>Anyway, off of my soapbox… lots of jobs are hard. Teaching is one of them.</p>
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<p>I did not express an opinion about the $50K. The article was in a prominent place in the Newark Star-Ledger and I thought that it might merit discussion here.</p>
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<p>And I thought OUR school was the only one in this boat. We have had 4 principals in the last 8 years and another handful of interims who filled in between each of the principals. And truthfully, I don’t expect the one we have now to remain for a long time either. They just come and go. </p>
<p>I have made this offer MANY times in my long teaching career. Please, if you want to know what teaching is like, you can do my job for one week. I will leave you ALL the plans and materials. All you have to do is do what <em>I</em> do for the full week (including taking home any necessary work, making phone calls in the evening to families, attending required after school meetings, and teaching). At the end of the week (assuming you continue for the full week), I will pay you my full salary for the week. Truthfully , I would do this, but my adminstration and the state BOE would have a fit. My job requires both state certification and department of health certification, and the completion of at least a masters degree and a full year of supervised experience.</p>
<p>Just curious…Where do all these principals go? Do they go on to become superintendents, work on the state level, for other districts as principals?</p>
<p>Where I am, some principals move from district to district, and some principals move into central office positions (assistant superintendents, directors of curriculum or superintendent positions). Some retire.</p>
<p>My understanding is that there is a shortage of administrators (principals and supers) because while the positions pay very well the jobs are very demanding and time consuming. Now for a contradiction about jobs paying very well- I believe that may depend on the crowd you belong to- my group of friends that work in the financial sector or sales or own their own business never complain about government salaries (they do complain about taxes) because their pay is far superior to teachers or government employees. A friend in medical sales laughs at his wifes pay saying they expect her to live in poverty if she was not married. She works more hours then he does and was by far a superior student. We all make choices in life and I guess it is human nature to feel the other guy has it easier and does not deserve what the have. On the whole public workers have been demonized unfairly.</p>
<p>one principal we had was moved around from school to school for about 3 years until she was bumped upstairs and is a preschool director within the district. Another went to another school. Two went to another district , and one retired.</p>
<p>I can’t blame them for looking for a job with the most perks and money either. We have held onto our principals overall. We have had a few retire after full careers and one who moved on to a better postition elsewhere. We have also had teachers leave to go to other districts, and we have received some wonderful teachers who taught in other districts. </p>
<p>One wonderful teaching perk is job security and pension. Yes, there are more financially successful people in medical sales, but there are also salespeople who have lost their jobs and then had to take meager jobs until they were reemployed for less money. Sales does not have the same job security. All provisions have their pros and cons. Tom, your friend may never face unemployment, but there are plenty in sales or in the corporate world that do.</p>
<p>My brother in law was an auditor for various banking firms ( unfortunately he had a knack for picking ones that merged into another). Then he was regional CFO for a national software/internet company. Guess what happened to it? Then for a trucking firm. After paying out money to employ headhunters in his behalf, with no results for over a year, he is now selling ins out of his home.
Not a lot of money in it, as income comes from renewals and he just started a couple years ago.</p>
<p>Many jobs don’t have a lot of security, the ones that do, don’t often pay a lot, and govt jobs don’t pay a * lot* but if the benefits are good, that can count for more than the income.</p>
<p>Well. Here’s the way it works now where I live. Most young teachers are hired not on tenure track but as “leave replacements” for teachers out on maternity (of which there are many since most teachers hired are young women). These teachers are observed and evaluated as if they are on a tenure track but they must re-apply as if they haven’t taught there by mid-year when the hiring is done. Tenure-track teachers are observed and evaluated very thoroughly; most do not make it to a second year. This is on a salary of less than $50,000. If a teacher does make it to the point of a tenure recommendation, parents and community members are encouraged to weigh in with their opinions. Once tenured, the teacher is still evaluated yearly and can be found “in need of improvement.” The many eyes watching every teacher - parents, administrators, other teachers - ensure that teachers do not go unchecked. And this is not counting the testing for which they are held accountable. Many teachers are out of the classroom almost as much as in the classrooms because of new initiatives for which they are trained and especially because they are pulled to correct the endless tests. If teachers did not have some kind of security, the system would be even more unstable because the teachers who know that they aren’t coming back spend most of spring looking for another job for the next year. I don’t know the answer, but I do know that now that people on this board aren’t focused on the salaries of teachers, they are focused on their job security. It just boggles my mind the way teachers are disrespected and disparaged. I agree with thumper1 - Walk a mile in the shoes of an educator before you make assumptions about the job and any of the “perks” you resent that you think go along with it.</p>
<p>I see at least as many compliments and recognition, as I do disrespect and disparaging comments.</p>
<p>I’ve been in the school district for 15 years, and it NEVER gets much easier, and it NEVER gets less stressful! Ever. In my state, we don’t have tenure, and in my district and with my experience, I make $5000 more (with a Master’s degree), than a FIRST YEAR teacher with just a Bachelor’s degree. I work early and late at school and bring work home. If you knew the amount of paperwork and responsibilities outside of just TEACHING the little darlings, you would be amazed. Low stress – that’s a hoot! (Several years ago I posted about having TWO emotionally-disturbed students placed in my classroom - without an aide. Just me and 20 students, two of whom threw chairs, screamed obscenities, banged heads against the wall… This year I have one sweety with epilepsy, one with a chromosomal difference resulting in serious learning difficulties and behavioral issues, 1 diagnosed with ADHD whose mother choses not to medicate, 1 whose mother does medicate - periodically, 4 who have been retained in Kindergarten due to learning difficulties and problems with attendance, 2 who have not yet been referred for assessment but have serious attention problems, 2 who always have serious body odor due to frequent pantswetting and not enough bathing, 3 who always have nits and lice - despite our efforts to help the families eradicate, 1 student who suffers emotional problems and frequent crying and meltdowns, 3 with communication and/or articulation issues, many with parents in jail, and, oh yes, a student mobility problem so that one of my retainees has been in SEVEN schools and he’s only 6-years-old, and, as of November, already 1/3 of my class has turned-over. God’s truth - nothing I wrote above is an exaggeration. I serve on committees, spend hours documenting student needs so they can go through the lengthy pipeline for identification for special services (which they won’t get until the following year.) Talk to me about low-stress while I chuckle ruefully… and I would love to make $50,000 a year.</p>
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People are still taking this the wrong way. I don’t see teachers being disrespected as a group. Certainly the profession is very respectable, and more of a calling, than just a job. We live in an excellent school district, and it is excellent because of some wonderful teachers, and many many smart educated families for whom learning is a priority. If these same teachers were in another area, they would not be getting the recognition they get here, nor would they be able to have much impact on that area because of the other problems there.</p>